French ban on burqas - what is your take?

[Anonymous]

Your nasty and judgemental attitude prevent you from taking another point of view into mind. When somebody disagrees with you, you choose to formulate personal attacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I am always somewhat shocked to see a fully-veiled woman, it's hard to see that this law is anything other than an attack on Muslims.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2010/0127/What-s-hiding-behind-France-s-proposed-burqa-ban

French authorities say that only about 1,900 women wear the burqa or the niqab, two versions of the full covering with a mesh or slit for the eyes. That’s .038 percent of France’s Muslim population of about 5 million that’s now deemed a threat to the French Republic and its values.

The burqa does not fit comfortably with Western sentiments. It’s closed; Westerners are open. They want to see people’s faces. It’s also viewed as a prison for women – even if Muslim women are free to choose it. And it symbolizes fundamentalist Islam, which conjures up images of terrorism. That’s perhaps why the Dutch and Austrians are also discussing a burqa ban.

But sentiments shouldn’t be confused with bedrock freedoms, including the right to practice one’s religion. Being uncomfortable with another’s faith or even dress – and encoding that discomfort in law – puts one on the slippery slope to official discrimination. Will Sikh turbans be next?

Yes. In fact, along with crucifixes and hijab, they have been banned in schools. France is a secular state and does not promise freedom of religion. They are concerned by the symbolism of the fundamental (and radical) nature of Islam represented by the small population of Muslims who choose or are required to wear a burqa. That is why they are considering banning it. It is their country, and their right to ban it in their country. The US promises freedom of religion. Frankly, prevailing French sentiment seems to be along the lines of "if you want to wear a burqa, either go home or piss off to the US, they'll let you do it there". ANd frankly, I wish we wouldn't either.

PPs have talked about it being the choice for many Muslim women who do it. Really? If that's what you're taught from cradle onwards, is it a true choice? Or are you essentially brainwashed into it?

Oh so you chose to be comfortable showing off your beautiful knees and elbows? or were you brainwashed that it's OK to show your bellybutton if there's a puddle of water around you?

[Anonymous]

I haven't had time to read the whole thread so forgive me if someone already pointed this out. France has had a law in effect for YEARS that prevents ANYONE from hiding their identity so this is this is not a matter of religious indifference or oppression as much as it's just a matter of security.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PPs have talked about it being the choice for many Muslim women who do it. Really? If that's what you're taught from cradle onwards, is it a true choice? Or are you essentially brainwashed into it?

Egyptians are a perfect example of this. While there has been a huge public pressure for years to wear hijab (head scarf only), niqab has historically been frowned upon. And yet, there's a recent and growing trend for Egyptian women to wear it. The women who do so are choosing to do so as an outward display of their devotion to Islam (rightly or wrongly). It's definitely not something that's been taught from the "cradle onwards." And not something forced on them by husbands. So no, you can't assume a woman in the U.S. who wears niqab is forced to do so or knows no differently. You don't know her personal situation and it's not fair (and often wrong) to judge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I support the ban on burqas, simply because they do pose a security risk. Granted maybe only .038% of French women were them, but what do you think the odds are that a terrorist plot to bomb a building would involve two or more men in burqas? Probably a lot higher than .038%, I'd say...

And this has happened, where?

Let's see... where can you find people wearing burqas? What do all these countries have in common? Thanks for playing!

Afghanistan: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/07/21/2009-07-21_bombers_dressed_in_burqas_.html

Afghanistan: http://sweetness-light.com/archive/burqa-bomber-kills-12-afghan-civilians-6-police

Somalia: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/03/AR2009120300544.html

Pakistan: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/03/AR2009120300544.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I support the ban on burqas, simply because they do pose a security risk. Granted maybe only .038% of French women were them, but what do you think the odds are that a terrorist plot to bomb a building would involve two or more men in burqas? Probably a lot higher than .038%, I'd say...

And this has happened, where?

Let's see... where can you find people wearing burqas? What do all these countries have in common? Thanks for playing!

Afghanistan: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/07/21/2009-07-21_bombers_dressed_in_burqas_.html

Afghanistan: http://sweetness-light.com/archive/burqa-bomber-kills-12-afghan-civilians-6-police

Somalia: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/03/AR2009120300544.html

Pakistan: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/03/AR2009120300544.html

You forgot to add USA to the list, I've seen some around here too and plenty at school. Actually, there's a girl sitting in front of me in class right now wearing one. Should I be concerned?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone's pressured to some degree by their culture to dress in a certain way. Some more than others of course.

Yes. And not just persuaded, but legally forced to dress a certain way. I can't walk down the street without a top on - my male friends can. If I walked around topless I could expect to go to jail. And even if we leave boobs out of it, as a society we have deemed everybody's genitals be covered in public. Each society decides what is acceptable and unacceptable dress/exposed body parts in public. Society dictates what must get covered. Can it dictate what has to be SHOWN (face)?

I don't think anyone on this board has said that Muslims or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to cover their hair and dress modestly. The burqa - a walking tent to hide an entire person just because she is female - is very different.

The poster with the child who said "it's like she's not even a person" - absolutely correct insight and your statements to your daughter were right on.

In the US, we can't dictate what someone does or does not wear - although law enforcement can force them to identify themselves in certain situations. I think it's OK for the US to require that people's faces be visible from a security stand point.

If I went to a country where I was required to wear a hajib or burqa I would wear it (would try very hard not to go to such a place). As a part of a larger society we all must make concessions some times.

what if the daughter of the muslin lady said "LOOK MOM THAT WOMAN THERE IS NAKED IS LIKE SHE'S AN ANIMAL WALKING AROUND SHOWING HER PARTS!"?
it all depends on the values we're TAUGHT!
what we need to learn is tolerance. shame on us!

If she said that I would laugh. She can think what she wants to. I don't really care what she thinks. I care what MY child thinks and I would agree with my child's assessment that wearing a burqa reduces a woman to an anonymous ghost of a person.

[Anonymous]

The links to the countries above are for male bombers wearing burqas. USA luckily is not on that list yet.

I would fully support a US ban on burqas, yes. Just as I would not feel comfortable riding the Metro with a man or woman fully covered head to toe in black cat burglar attire, including a full black ski mask covering his/her face - - the purpose of a burqa is to conceal the person underneath.

Terrorists can use this concealment to their advantage to hide gender, weapons, bombs, etc - - so yes, I would be concerned that SOMEDAY the person under that burqa may turn out to be a suicide bomber. Like I said, I know it's not PC to say it, but there it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone's pressured to some degree by their culture to dress in a certain way. Some more than others of course.

Yes. And not just persuaded, but legally forced to dress a certain way. I can't walk down the street without a top on - my male friends can. If I walked around topless I could expect to go to jail. And even if we leave boobs out of it, as a society we have deemed everybody's genitals be covered in public. Each society decides what is acceptable and unacceptable dress/exposed body parts in public. Society dictates what must get covered. Can it dictate what has to be SHOWN (face)?

I don't think anyone on this board has said that Muslims or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to cover their hair and dress modestly. The burqa - a walking tent to hide an entire person just because she is female - is very different.

The poster with the child who said "it's like she's not even a person" - absolutely correct insight and your statements to your daughter were right on.

In the US, we can't dictate what someone does or does not wear - although law enforcement can force them to identify themselves in certain situations. I think it's OK for the US to require that people's faces be visible from a security stand point.

If I went to a country where I was required to wear a hajib or burqa I would wear it (would try very hard not to go to such a place). As a part of a larger society we all must make concessions some times.

what if the daughter of the muslin lady said "LOOK MOM THAT WOMAN THERE IS NAKED IS LIKE SHE'S AN ANIMAL WALKING AROUND SHOWING HER PARTS!"?
it all depends on the values we're TAUGHT!
what we need to learn is tolerance. shame on us!

If she said that I would laugh. She can think what she wants to. I don't really care what she thinks. I care what MY child thinks and I would agree with my child's assessment that wearing a burqa reduces a woman to an anonymous ghost of a person.

I laugh at your disgrace!

[Anonymous]

In a land according to the way of the land
In a house according to the way of the house

In France, do as the French. To wear a covering that only shows your eyes is rood and unpolite. The country has ancient customs and wish to keep them. Basic curtesy is one of them.

That is not the practice on DCUM

[Anonymous]

I think it should be legal for women to be topless in public. If men can do it why can't we? They're for babies anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I am always somewhat shocked to see a fully-veiled woman, it's hard to see that this law is anything other than an attack on Muslims.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2010/0127/What-s-hiding-behind-France-s-proposed-burqa-ban

French authorities say that only about 1,900 women wear the burqa or the niqab, two versions of the full covering with a mesh or slit for the eyes. That’s .038 percent of France’s Muslim population of about 5 million that’s now deemed a threat to the French Republic and its values.

The burqa does not fit comfortably with Western sentiments. It’s closed; Westerners are open. They want to see people’s faces. It’s also viewed as a prison for women – even if Muslim women are free to choose it. And it symbolizes fundamentalist Islam, which conjures up images of terrorism. That’s perhaps why the Dutch and Austrians are also discussing a burqa ban.

But sentiments shouldn’t be confused with bedrock freedoms, including the right to practice one’s religion. Being uncomfortable with another’s faith or even dress – and encoding that discomfort in law – puts one on the slippery slope to official discrimination. Will Sikh turbans be next?

Yes. In fact, along with crucifixes and hijab, they have been banned in schools. France is a secular state and does not promise freedom of religion. They are concerned by the symbolism of the fundamental (and radical) nature of Islam represented by the small population of Muslims who choose or are required to wear a burqa. That is why they are considering banning it. It is their country, and their right to ban it in their country. The US promises freedom of religion. Frankly, prevailing French sentiment seems to be along the lines of "if you want to wear a burqa, either go home or piss off to the US, they'll let you do it there". ANd frankly, I wish we wouldn't either.

PPs have talked about it being the choice for many Muslim women who do it. Really? If that's what you're taught from cradle onwards, is it a true choice? Or are you essentially brainwashed into it?

Oh so you chose to be comfortable showing off your beautiful knees and elbows? or were you brainwashed that it's OK to show your bellybutton if there's a puddle of water around you?

???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In a land according to the way of the land
In a house according to the way of the house

In France, do as the French. To wear a covering that only shows your eyes is rood and unpolite. The country has ancient customs and wish to keep them. Basic curtesy is one of them.

That is not the practice on DCUM

Let's see for how long the Muslins have been in France:

"Muslim conquests (632–732), (Arabic: ????, Fata?, literally opening,) also referred to as the Islamic conquests or Arab conquests[1], of non-Arab peoples began after the death of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. He established a new unified political polity in the Arabian Peninsula which under the subsequent Rashidun (The Rightly Guided Caliphs) and Umayyad Caliphates saw a century of rapid expansion of Muslim power..."
"The Battle of Tours (October 10, 732),[5] also called the Battle of Poitiers and in Arabic: ????? ???? ???????? (ma‘arakat Balâ? ash-Shuhadâ) Battle of Court of the Martyrs[6], was fought in an area between the cities of Poitiers and Tours, located in north-central France."
Ma'am, the guys have been there for a while, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Muslim (although admittedly a pretty secular one) and even I admit to being very torn on this issue.

On the one hand, I don't like to see a ban on anything from a civil liberties point of view.

I do think though that the burqa is pretty insidious, and it is a legitimate issue whether it should be banned or restricted. As others mention, there are security implications. There are lots of situations where we need to identify a person and hence see their face. I would not accept having my child's teacher wear a burqa for example. A driver's license photo should show a face... So a burqa is very different from a hijab (where just the hair is covered), because it erases someone's identity and in a lot of situations, even in a free society, that is not acceptable. It is interesting that a few years ago there was an islamist uprising in a mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan where there was a standoff with the police. The instigator of this, who was a man, attempted to escape wearing a burqa.

I am much more accepting of the burqa as a practical tool for women to get around in certain islamic countries. I spent quite a bit of time in a predominantly Muslim country in my childhood and knew plenty of women (who tended to be poorer) using the burqa not because they liked it, but because it was the only way they could move around without being intimidated or harassed by men. I am much less sympathetic of burqas in the west.

This is really the heart of the matter - and fairly ironic at that.

How sad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Dehumanizing is to make man wear suits and ties in a 40C weather.
It's relative, sweet heart. If you grow up believing in something how can you judge what's best for others who grew up with different values?

Not everything is relative. We make value judgments about others' belief systems all the time. Do you think it's ok for an 'adultress' to be stoned to death? What's wrong with it if it's part of a particular culture and value system?

We once saw a woman in a burqa and my little daughter asked "Why is she all covered up like that? You can only see her eyes." I said that her religion requires her to be completely covered, and my daughter replied "But it's like she's not even a person." Even a small child can recognize how dehumanizing and degrading the burqa is for women.

quite the astute observation from a little one!