French ban on burqas - what is your take?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Dehumanizing is to make man wear suits and ties in a 40C weather.
It's relative, sweet heart. If you grow up believing in something how can you judge what's best for others who grew up with different values?

Not everything is relative. We make value judgments about others' belief systems all the time. Do you think it's ok for an 'adultress' to be stoned to death? What's wrong with it if it's part of a particular culture and value system?

We once saw a woman in a burqa and my little daughter asked "Why is she all covered up like that? You can only see her eyes." I said that her religion requires her to be completely covered, and my daughter replied "But it's like she's not even a person." Even a small child can recognize how dehumanizing and degrading the burqa is for women.

You bad bad mom!
I would never tell my daughter that you show your knees because your religion requires you to do so.
How do you know that the woman you were referring to was not dressed like that because she chose to?

[Anonymous]

Come to northern Virginia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'

On the other hand, I'm sure there are some Muslim women who believe they SHOULD wear burqas (due to their religious beliefs) and WANT to wear them. It seems criminal to deny them the right to practice their own religion, or wear what they feel comfortable in.

But you have to agree that it's dehumanizing. Any religion that creates such a division between men and women is flawed.

And burqas are the extreme.

Dehumanizing is to make man wear suits and ties in a 40C weather.
It's relative, sweet heart. If you grow up believing in something how can you judge what's best for others who grew up with different values?

"Sweetheart," why does your response make me think that you're also in favor of female genital mutilation?

Sweetheart, I'm a woman and I'm talking in behalf of my brother, my husband and my father, all men that had to dress "accordingly" to the environment where they worked even though they didn't want to. They were obligated to do so and nobody advocated for them!
And no, I'm not in favor of genital mutilation, male or female without consent of the person being mutilated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'

On the other hand, I'm sure there are some Muslim women who believe they SHOULD wear burqas (due to their religious beliefs) and WANT to wear them. It seems criminal to deny them the right to practice their own religion, or wear what they feel comfortable in.

But you have to agree that it's dehumanizing. Any religion that creates such a division between men and women is flawed.

And burqas are the extreme.

Dehumanizing is to make man wear suits and ties in a 40C weather.
It's relative, sweet heart. If you grow up believing in something how can you judge what's best for others who grew up with different values?

"Sweetheart," why does your response make me think that you're also in favor of female genital mutilation?

Sweetheart, I'm a woman and I'm talking in behalf of my brother, my husband and my father, all men that had to dress "accordingly" to the environment where they worked even though they didn't want to. They were obligated to do so and nobody advocated for them!
And no, I'm not in favor of genital mutilation, male or female without consent of the person being mutilated.

You are comparing a suit and tie to FULL body cover?

apples and oranges, idiot

[Anonymous]

Everyone's pressured to some degree by their culture to dress in a certain way. Some more than others of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing is that it's another country that has its own laws and culture. It's like a group of people going to another group's home and expecting the first group to accept their culture and values which may be opposite to the beliefs held by the first group. That's different from here where people come from all over the world to blend together and become part of the melting pot.

Yes, exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'

On the other hand, I'm sure there are some Muslim women who believe they SHOULD wear burqas (due to their religious beliefs) and WANT to wear them. It seems criminal to deny them the right to practice their own religion, or wear what they feel comfortable in.

But you have to agree that it's dehumanizing. Any religion that creates such a division between men and women is flawed.

And burqas are the extreme.

Dehumanizing is to make man wear suits and ties in a 40C weather.
It's relative, sweet heart. If you grow up believing in something how can you judge what's best for others who grew up with different values?

"Sweetheart," why does your response make me think that you're also in favor of female genital mutilation?

Sweetheart, I'm a woman and I'm talking in behalf of my brother, my husband and my father, all men that had to dress "accordingly" to the environment where they worked even though they didn't want to. They were obligated to do so and nobody advocated for them!
And no, I'm not in favor of genital mutilation, male or female without consent of the person being mutilated.

You are comparing a suit and tie to FULL body cover?

apples and oranges, idiot

you're an idiot.
I'm showing how in a way or the other our cultures pressure us to wear things we don't want to and eventually we get used to it.
again, you idiot.

[Anonymous]

You bad bad mom!
I would never tell my daughter that you show your knees because your religion requires you to do so.
How do you know that the woman you were referring to was not dressed like that because she chose to?

???
Which religion encourages women to bare their knees??

Are you suggesting that women just think "Hey, it's wonderful to be completely covered in flowing robes from head to toe, peering through a little slit in my veil to see where I'm going. It's even comfortable on the beach and swimming in the ocean! Totally my choice, I want to be shapeless, formless, barely visible. This is just how I choose to dress, for myself."

[Anonymous]

I've seen a women in full burqa in Target of all places. It's a head-turner for sure when you see one of those -- kind of chilling, even. The woman seemed almost ghostlike. Imagine having to wear one of those things or risk a beating. Horrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You bad bad mom!
I would never tell my daughter that you show your knees because your religion requires you to do so.
How do you know that the woman you were referring to was not dressed like that because she chose to?

???
Which religion encourages women to bare their knees??

Are you suggesting that women just think "Hey, it's wonderful to be completely covered in flowing robes from head to toe, peering through a little slit in my veil to see where I'm going. It's even comfortable on the beach and swimming in the ocean! Totally my choice, I want to be shapeless, formless, barely visible. This is just how I choose to dress, for myself."

Not that poster, but yes, there are women out there who are choosing to dress like this, for a variety of reasons. And yes, there are some forced to dress that way by their husbands. But you can't tell which is which just by looking at them. And I wouldn't have told my daughter that, either. I would have said some Muslims dress that way and left it at that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've seen a women in full burqa in Target of all places. It's a head-turner for sure when you see one of those -- kind of chilling, even. The woman seemed almost ghostlike. Imagine having to wear one of those things or risk a beating. Horrible.

Was it like the Afghan burqas? Or was it like black niquab that Saudis and Yemenis wear? Were the eyes screened (which is what I consider a burqa, maybe I should have been more specific).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone's pressured to some degree by their culture to dress in a certain way. Some more than others of course.

Yes. And not just persuaded, but legally forced to dress a certain way. I can't walk down the street without a top on - my male friends can. If I walked around topless I could expect to go to jail. And even if we leave boobs out of it, as a society we have deemed everybody's genitals be covered in public. Each society decides what is acceptable and unacceptable dress/exposed body parts in public. Society dictates what must get covered. Can it dictate what has to be SHOWN (face)?

I don't think anyone on this board has said that Muslims or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to cover their hair and dress modestly. The burqa - a walking tent to hide an entire person just because she is female - is very different.

The poster with the child who said "it's like she's not even a person" - absolutely correct insight and your statements to your daughter were right on.

In the US, we can't dictate what someone does or does not wear - although law enforcement can force them to identify themselves in certain situations. I think it's OK for the US to require that people's faces be visible from a security stand point.

If I went to a country where I was required to wear a hajib or burqa I would wear it (would try very hard not to go to such a place). As a part of a larger society we all must make concessions some times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone's pressured to some degree by their culture to dress in a certain way. Some more than others of course.

Yes. And not just persuaded, but legally forced to dress a certain way. I can't walk down the street without a top on - my male friends can. If I walked around topless I could expect to go to jail. And even if we leave boobs out of it, as a society we have deemed everybody's genitals be covered in public. Each society decides what is acceptable and unacceptable dress/exposed body parts in public. Society dictates what must get covered. Can it dictate what has to be SHOWN (face)?

I don't think anyone on this board has said that Muslims or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to cover their hair and dress modestly. The burqa - a walking tent to hide an entire person just because she is female - is very different.

The poster with the child who said "it's like she's not even a person" - absolutely correct insight and your statements to your daughter were right on.

In the US, we can't dictate what someone does or does not wear - although law enforcement can force them to identify themselves in certain situations. I think it's OK for the US to require that people's faces be visible from a security stand point.

If I went to a country where I was required to wear a hajib or burqa I would wear it (would try very hard not to go to such a place). As a part of a larger society we all must make concessions some times.

what if the daughter of the muslin lady said "LOOK MOM THAT WOMAN THERE IS NAKED IS LIKE SHE'S AN ANIMAL WALKING AROUND SHOWING HER PARTS!"?
it all depends on the values we're TAUGHT!
what we need to learn is tolerance. shame on us!

[Anonymous]

While I am always somewhat shocked to see a fully-veiled woman, it's hard to see that this law is anything other than an attack on Muslims.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2010/0127/What-s-hiding-behind-France-s-proposed-burqa-ban

French authorities say that only about 1,900 women wear the burqa or the niqab, two versions of the full covering with a mesh or slit for the eyes. That’s .038 percent of France’s Muslim population of about 5 million that’s now deemed a threat to the French Republic and its values.

The burqa does not fit comfortably with Western sentiments. It’s closed; Westerners are open. They want to see people’s faces. It’s also viewed as a prison for women – even if Muslim women are free to choose it. And it symbolizes fundamentalist Islam, which conjures up images of terrorism. That’s perhaps why the Dutch and Austrians are also discussing a burqa ban.

But sentiments shouldn’t be confused with bedrock freedoms, including the right to practice one’s religion. Being uncomfortable with another’s faith or even dress – and encoding that discomfort in law – puts one on the slippery slope to official discrimination. Will Sikh turbans be next?

[Anonymous]

Oh shut up. If I walked around topless on the street you would make comments about me and put me in jail anyway.
What all do you want to just stop minding other's business?