Pay-to-Play Sport at Private HS employing club coach - what's normal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is very common in swimming as well. At both clubs my kid swam, coaches only promoted those who also swam on their side gigs like summer leagues, clinics, took private lessons. I guess all sorts are money making machines now. It is very hard to find training environment where promotion is always directly related to performance.

I think it’s a little bit different when you’re talking about kids paying tens of thousands of dollars to go to private schools, and then the coaches at those schools require the kids to pay them extra thousands out of season. Criminal.

I agree (I am a swim mom). The worst thing is that talented children are wasting time instead of getting the training they need, and athlete's time is very limited - they have so much to do in middle/high school!
I would have just paid to such school coach, my child's time is more valuable. Switching teams also causes stress, etc.

I find that strange because swimming is objective...you're either fast or you're not. What do you mean coaches only "promoted" certain kids?

You would be surprised how many kids with superior official times are not promoted vs those with lesser results but on the coaches summer leagues, friends etc. It’s impossible to fight with: they can refer to technique, age etc.

Are you "sure" about this? My son attended a private school in Northern Virginia and he plays golf in the fall and tennis in the spring. They have trial outs and challenge matches and the best players get to start on the team. The coach has no say in it. The coach just can't promote inferior kids over superior kids. How do I know this? Because my kid attend a different tennis camp and golf camp than the one that the current HS coach operates.

[Anonymous]

MCPS high schools have had this as well. Field Hockey Wootton Girls Varsity had a coach who pay /play. Fielded camps outside of school that were required. Also, had incoming freshman come to these at the soccer plex in Rockville. Told girls they would make the team. Basketball has same issues.. Money makers .......

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right, it doesn't happen at Gonzaga. Gonzaga just recruits from all over the DMV and Annapolis and Frederick etc. And how many of their star football, basketball, and lacrosse players are 1-2 years older then they should be for their grade? Quite a few, I assure you. Just like SJC and DeMatha you say? If you are a regular kid who could have played football or basketball at Gonzaga 30-35 years ago, now you can do crew or cross-country.

The whole things stinks and not just at SJC and Gonzaga.

What do you mean regular? I am aware of schools reclassifying athletes in the early 80’s.

[Anonymous]

If a kid is super good a soccer they are playing in a development academy team which means that kid cannot play for their high school or another club team.

[Anonymous]

Hello SSSAS and girls lacrosse too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused. Kids who play in this soccer league are transferring to private school just to play soccer there? Why?

I don't know enough about high school soccer but other kids go to St Johns and other WCAC schools because it is one of the best athletic conferences in the country. Kids who play there get noticed and get athletic scholarships to college. And like I said I don't know enough about soccer, but top football and basketball (maybe baseball, lax and other sports) players can get full athletic scholarships to go to St Johns. Football doesn't have travel teams and I don't think the St Johns basketball coach has an AAU team. So those kids can go to high school for free and then go to college for free. I don't know how this works for soccer and other sports, but if they are getting scholarships at St Johns and then getting college scholarships, maybe its worth it.

Football does have Travel. Some of you guys need to get with the times. Maybe there was no travel football when you were a kid, but there is now. In Virginia it is the VAYFL. The Evergreen Hammers has a team and the play other teams from all over the Virginia, DC, and Maryland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused. Kids who play in this soccer league are transferring to private school just to play soccer there? Why?

I don't know enough about high school soccer but other kids go to St Johns and other WCAC schools because it is one of the best athletic conferences in the country. Kids who play there get noticed and get athletic scholarships to college. And like I said I don't know enough about soccer, but top football and basketball (maybe baseball, lax and other sports) players can get full athletic scholarships to go to St Johns. Football doesn't have travel teams and I don't think the St Johns basketball coach has an AAU team. So those kids can go to high school for free and then go to college for free. I don't know how this works for soccer and other sports, but if they are getting scholarships at St Johns and then getting college scholarships, maybe its worth it.

Football does have Travel. Some of you guys need to get with the times. Maybe there was no travel football when you were a kid, but there is now. In Virginia it is the VAYFL. The Evergreen Hammers has a team and the play other teams from all over the Virginia, DC, and Maryland.

Try to be a critical reader here. Football is different because it doesn’t have travel at the high school level, which is what this entire string is about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the first I've heard about this going on in St. Johns' soccer program but it doesn't surprise me. We were consideing St. Johns for our son who is a baseball player. St. Johns has a reputation as the best baseball program around- they have won the wcac for the last 5 or 6 years. Their head coach and his brother who is an assistant run a private travel program called Diamond Skills. Diamond Skills also runs baseball camps at St. Johns. If you look on their site the camps are $400 or $500 a week. But here's where it’s worse than with soccer- we heard you HAVE TO play for Diamond Skills or you are not allowed to play baseball at St. Johns. We heard a few players were kicked out of the program this summer because they played for other travel programs and not Diamond Skills. Two of them are in 10th grade and are verbally committed to ACC schools. The other is in 11th grade and is committed to an SEC school. Why does the school let them do it? I think it's just wrong and don't really understand it. I also think it's ironic that this is a Catholic school- nice values you're teaching the kids. Our son plays for a very good travel program and isn't considering St. Johns anymore.

My son played baseball at SJC. Maybe the biggest regret of his life. He was a top area youth player in an excellent travel organization and when we looked at SJC he was promised the world by Coach Gibbs. Playing time; development; exposure and recruiting assistance. When we met him he showed us all the great facilities and he talked about their reputation of winning and sending players to play in college. Smoke and mirror. All he cared about was winning and making money. My son ended up having a chance to play in college but at a much lower level then he hoped and planned. By his senior year friends of his who he played with before SJC had improved much more then he did and had scholarship offers from good division 1 schools. Those kids got a lot more recruiting exposure with their travel teams then my son got with Diamond Skills, which as a previous poster said they were forced to play for. They also went to big recruiting showcases that my son wasn't able to go to and thats where a lot of the college coaches were. Also if I'm being honest, part of the reason they went to better colleges is because they got better then he did in high school, but it wasn't because of a lack of effort by my son. He worked out with the SJC team year around and worked really hard. Other then getting faster and stronger he didn't really improve. He looks back and says there was just a lot of wasted time. What makes me sad is that he stopped enjoying baseball and missed out on a lot. I remember playing high school sports as one of the most fun and exciting times of my life, and I feel like he totally missed out on all that. The crazy thing is that we spent a lot of money for this. Not just tuition but also to be a part of the baseball team there. We paid thousands of dollars a year to play Diamond Skills and for the camps and work outs. We are not wealthy and I really regret our decision for him to go there. His friends who went to publics spent a lot less money, did better and had more fun.

If the original person is talking about the SJC soccer coach you should know it is going on with other sports there too. The administration knows it is going on and has been since before our son went there, and they're OK with it. Maybe it works out for some people but not from what I saw with most of my son's team mates.

Have a 7th Grade son who plays baseball at a high level. One of his friends on his team wants to go to Saint John’s beyond badly. We have heard horror stories from other parents about the grueling practices at 6 am and their kids riding the bench.

We are big believers in our kids playing multiple sports. Our son just started at an area independent school where he can do just that. They have many kids who go on to play sports in college at his school. If, after puberty, it looks like he’s college material for one of his sports they’ll know what to do. In the meantime, he’s developing his skills, learning how to be a good teammate, etc. and having fun.

Maybe we are doing it wrong, but our kid is happy and that’s what matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right, it doesn't happen at Gonzaga. Gonzaga just recruits from all over the DMV and Annapolis and Frederick etc. And how many of their star football, basketball, and lacrosse players are 1-2 years older then they should be for their grade? Quite a few, I assure you. Just like SJC and DeMatha you say? If you are a regular kid who could have played football or basketball at Gonzaga 30-35 years ago, now you can do crew or cross-country.

The whole things stinks and not just at SJC and Gonzaga.

What do you mean regular? I am aware of schools reclassifying athletes in the early 80’s.

Who reclassed in the early '80s besides Landon?

the following is an example of a "Regular" athlete. The boys who will be on the Gonzaga freshmen basketball team this winter. How many of them will eventually play varsity hoops at Gonzaga? Maybe 0 or 1. This was not always the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son plays a HS fall sport at a DC private. It's a team sport. The school does well athletically but had not recently in this sport.

The school decided to bring in a new coach a couple years ago who also runs his own club team. He’s not a coach at large local club, but he has his own company running his own club. After joining the school, the coach set up his own club to basically operate out of the school, with camps, practices, games, and even cook outs held at the school. Just about every photo on his company’s website is clearly taken at the school’s facilities.
As time has progressed, more and more players from his club team have enrolled in the HS, usually as freshman. Every year a new crop of freshman show up (about 4), and they are placed on the Varsity team and given starting roles. The coach uses the school team communication system to constantly advertise his camps and club, and the message to everyone seems to be if you want to play on the school's team, you need to be a paying customer of his club team.

The problem is – probably two thirds of the players don’t have an association with his club. Which leaves 2/3 of the boys riding the bench while his club players take most of the game time. (Some of his club players are good and should be on the field. Some are no better or worse than the Juniors and Seniors his players are bumping off the field.) The coach also seems to actively segregate his club players from the rest of the team – scrimmaging them against each other, talking to them separately, giving their parents special attention, etc. I’ve also heard about the coach soliciting players from opposing schools to join his club team after games. All of this has led players to quit the team, and even to a couple of transfers out of the school. On the sidelines, the parents have segregated themselves as well, between families associated with his club team and those that are not.

My question is this – is this common? Am I naïve in expecting a school to not allow a circumstance like this to develop or persist? Is this just the way it is, and I should just deal with it, or is it worth raising as an issue? This has been going on long enough that I know that other parents have complained, but nothing has changed over the last couple of years.

No, that is not common.

That coach should be fired. Talk to the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of this is why we encouraged our athlete to choose a school for academics and keep the school sports secondary. Club athletics is in one lane; academics is in another lane. As a bonus he gets to have a great time playing for the school and having team success in a less competitive league and it is all about fun and good sportsmanship and school spirit and everyone is encouraged to be involved.

Our DS made the same choice and has no regrets. He gets strong academics, strong club sport, and fun/rewarding school team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is very common in swimming as well. At both clubs my kid swam, coaches only promoted those who also swam on their side gigs like summer leagues, clinics, took private lessons. I guess all sorts are money making machines now. It is very hard to find training environment where promotion is always directly related to performance.

I think it’s a little bit different when you’re talking about kids paying tens of thousands of dollars to go to private schools, and then the coaches at those schools require the kids to pay them extra thousands out of season. Criminal.

I agree (I am a swim mom). The worst thing is that talented children are wasting time instead of getting the training they need, and athlete's time is very limited - they have so much to do in middle/high school!
I would have just paid to such school coach, my child's time is more valuable. Switching teams also causes stress, etc.

I find that strange because swimming is objective...you're either fast or you're not. What do you mean coaches only "promoted" certain kids?

You would be surprised how many kids with superior official times are not promoted vs those with lesser results but on the coaches summer leagues, friends etc. It’s impossible to fight with: they can refer to technique, age etc.

Another swim parent here, and I also do not know what you meant by "promoted" in the context of high school swimming?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of this is why we encouraged our athlete to choose a school for academics and keep the school sports secondary. Club athletics is in one lane; academics is in another lane. As a bonus he gets to have a great time playing for the school and having team success in a less competitive league and it is all about fun and good sportsmanship and school spirit and everyone is encouraged to be involved.

One hundred times this. If your kid can hack it academically, being a big fish and opening up doors using sports to go to top schools is the way to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is very common in swimming as well. At both clubs my kid swam, coaches only promoted those who also swam on their side gigs like summer leagues, clinics, took private lessons. I guess all sorts are money making machines now. It is very hard to find training environment where promotion is always directly related to performance.

I think it’s a little bit different when you’re talking about kids paying tens of thousands of dollars to go to private schools, and then the coaches at those schools require the kids to pay them extra thousands out of season. Criminal.

I agree (I am a swim mom). The worst thing is that talented children are wasting time instead of getting the training they need, and athlete's time is very limited - they have so much to do in middle/high school!
I would have just paid to such school coach, my child's time is more valuable. Switching teams also causes stress, etc.

I find that strange because swimming is objective...you're either fast or you're not. What do you mean coaches only "promoted" certain kids?

You would be surprised how many kids with superior official times are not promoted vs those with lesser results but on the coaches summer leagues, friends etc. It’s impossible to fight with: they can refer to technique, age etc.

Another swim parent here, and I also do not know what you meant by "promoted" in the context of high school swimming?

I was talking about club swimming, not high school swimming. There are plenty of good swimmers who get stuck in regular senior groups while others get promotions to NTG, NDG and other higher level groups with lesser times. It all depends on how well you are known to the coaches, whether you participante in that coach summer league team or high school team, take clinics etc. Kind of the same thing but reversed, where the club promotion between groups is dependent on "side" engagements with the coaches.

[Anonymous]

Yes, this is really common. You need to pick schools where the coach isn't dependent on his club income more than the HS income. That's the only way to avoid that.

It's pretty disgusting to see in action. The BOD won't care, either, at the schools that allow it. My kids are at a school that doesn't do it but have had kids they know in that situation.