Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
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Anonymous
I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. |
Anonymous
I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement. You are a Biblical literalist, right? Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course. So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is. As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...." I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. |
Anonymous
You are a Biblical literalist, right? Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course. So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is. As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...." I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. ----------- Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. -------- Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value. |
Anonymous
Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course. So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is. As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...." I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. ----------- Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. -------- Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value. ****************** That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians? |
Anonymous
So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is. As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...." I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. ----------- Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. -------- Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value. ****************** That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians? ******************* Good question and I think the answer is very individualized. I've noticed that people who say "I'm a Christian" usually are fundamentalist, "bible-believing" Christians who questions whether other types of Christians (e.g., progressive protestant denominations, Roman Catholics) are "true" Christians. The fundamentalists think that an essential part of being Christian is believing that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Other Christians will often identify themselves by their denomination (e.g., Episcopal, Methodist, Catholic) and view the Bible as their foundational book, but not as inerrant. |
Anonymous
So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is. As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...." I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. ----------- Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. -------- Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value. ****************** That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians? Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example. The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details. As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time. |
Anonymous
Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is. As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...." I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. ----------- Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. -------- Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value. ****************** That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians? Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example. The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details. As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time. ************ There are many ways to justify one's stance on religious faith, just as there are many ways to justify one's stance on other things. Humanists lead good lives without looking to the guidance of a supernatural god or a particular human prophet supposedly sent by god. |
Anonymous
As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...." I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. ----------- Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. -------- Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value. ****************** That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians? Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example. The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details. As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time. ************ There are many ways to justify one's stance on religious faith, just as there are many ways to justify one's stance on other things. Humanists lead good lives without looking to the guidance of a supernatural god or a particular human prophet supposedly sent by god. I do not understand this comment. Are you saying someone who believes in God and Jesus but doesn't take every detail in the Bible as literal fact should stop believing and be a humanist? Or that humanists are also good people who do not justify their morals with reference to God, which I agree with but is totally unrelated to my comment about why someone would call themselves a Christian? |
Anonymous
Slam dunk! |
Anonymous
"He will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today". (Popi:3:17) |
Anonymous
Only if you think god speaks exclusively through the Bible and that your interpretation is the correct one |
Anonymous
I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case. ----------- Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements. -------- Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value. ****************** That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians? Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example. The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details. As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time. ************ There are many ways to justify one's stance on religious faith, just as there are many ways to justify one's stance on other things. Humanists lead good lives without looking to the guidance of a supernatural god or a particular human prophet supposedly sent by god. I do not understand this comment. Are you saying someone who believes in God and Jesus but doesn't take every detail in the Bible as literal fact should stop believing and be a humanist? Or that humanists are also good people who do not justify their morals with reference to God, which I agree with but is totally unrelated to my comment about why someone would call themselves a Christian? ********* This. It's related if you think that people who follow Christian morals are following the same morals as humanists do without evoking Christ's teachings. Humanists don't call themselves Christians, and don't do good things as a way of following Christ, or being in favor with God. |