PSA: Jews are a racial group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s a study showing the distinct genetic characteristics of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

I don't think that is the basis of any disagreement here. The disagreement is what having Ashkenazi genetics means. Again Irish Catholics share strong genetics. I don't practice Catholicism at all, and I'd be pretty het up if someone claimed I was ethnically Catholic due to my genes. So I think you mean something different here, and I'm not quite sure what.

The group is not called Ashkenazi; it’s called Ashkenazi Jewish.

Judaism is an ethnicity for those who are Ashkenazi or Sephardic. It’s just a fact. It might not be true for other religions, but it is for these groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

Where has anyone denied that many Jews have Ashkenazi and Sephardic genetics? Not all Jews are Ashkenazi or Sephardic, and you can have Ashkenazi or Sephardic genes and NOT be Jewish. Still not clear on your ultimate point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s a study showing the distinct genetic characteristics of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

I don't think that is the basis of any disagreement here. The disagreement is what having Ashkenazi genetics means. Again Irish Catholics share strong genetics. I don't practice Catholicism at all, and I'd be pretty het up if someone claimed I was ethnically Catholic due to my genes. So I think you mean something different here, and I'm not quite sure what.

The group is not called Ashkenazi; it’s called Ashkenazi Jewish.

Judaism is an ethnicity for those who are Ashkenazi or Sephardic. It’s just a fact. It might not be true for other religions, but it is for these groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

Where has anyone denied that many Jews have Ashkenazi and Sephardic genetics? Not all Jews are Ashkenazi or Sephardic, and you can have Ashkenazi or Sephardic genes and NOT be Jewish. Still not clear on your ultimate point.

My point is to correct a misconception. I don’t get why you’re all so against the idea that Judaism has an ethnic component for those with specific backgrounds.

[Anonymous]

I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Yes. All of this.

If you all don’t believe this, you can take it up with my rabbi. He’d be happy to explain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve seen this misconception way too many times on this board.

Jews are a racial group. You don’t have to be ethnically Jewish to be Jewish, but Ashkenazi and Sephardic are ethnic identities. You can never practice Judaism and still be Jewish if you have that ethnic background.

Race is a social construct. You can guess if someone is from China or from Sweden by looking at their faces and hair, with a moderate number of exceptions. They are, however, defined geographically.

Jews are a people. A people it is possible to enter by birth, or by conversion. And by birth, only the mother matters, not the father, which is not how genes work.

By halacha it is not possible to leave it, in theory, if you were born into it, but the wisdom of the people considers someone who has formally converted to another religion to have left it.

Just as you can be an American and not care about America or practice American culture, but certain acts can cause your citizenship to be revoked.

A people is not a religion, but neither is it a race.

What holds the Jews together is Jewish civilization. Which is a religious civilization. Its more than a religion - it has languages, secular literatures, holidays with secular aspects, etc. But at its core are "religious" texts and traditions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve seen this misconception way too many times on this board.

Jews are a racial group. You don’t have to be ethnically Jewish to be Jewish, but Ashkenazi and Sephardic are ethnic identities. You can never practice Judaism and still be Jewish if you have that ethnic background.

Race is a social construct. You can guess if someone is from China or from Sweden by looking at their faces and hair, with a moderate number of exceptions. They are, however, defined geographically.

Jews are a people. A people it is possible to enter by birth, or by conversion. And by birth, only the mother matters, not the father, which is not how genes work.

By halacha it is not possible to leave it, in theory, if you were born into it, but the wisdom of the people considers someone who has formally converted to another religion to have left it.

Just as you can be an American and not care about America or practice American culture, but certain acts can cause your citizenship to be revoked.

A people is not a religion, but neither is it a race.

What holds the Jews together is Jewish civilization. Which is a religious civilization. Its more than a religion - it has languages, secular literatures, holidays with secular aspects, etc. But at its core are "religious" texts and traditions.

No.

You can be ethnically Jewish. That’s a fact.

Traditionally the religious identity of Judaism has been passed through the mother, but that’s changing and is separate from the ethnicity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

Where has anyone denied that many Jews have Ashkenazi and Sephardic genetics? Not all Jews are Ashkenazi or Sephardic, and you can have Ashkenazi or Sephardic genes and NOT be Jewish. Still not clear on your ultimate point.

My point is to correct a misconception. I don’t get why you’re all so against the idea that Judaism has an ethnic component for those with specific backgrounds.

Well that statement is QUITE a bit different than "PSA: Jews are a racial group"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

Yes, my elementary school and high school in Montgomery County had swastikas painted on them, too (30 or so years ago), and it's not hard to read the news and realize that anti-Semitism still exists. But people will always hate other people for bad reasons; the fact that some jerk hates me because I'm Jewish doesn't actually affect my life much if all he can do about it is call me a kike on Twitter. I don't see any evidence that there's much structural discrimination (as opposed to impotent hate) directed at Ashkenazi Jews in the United States these days. Do you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve seen this misconception way too many times on this board.

Jews are a racial group. You don’t have to be ethnically Jewish to be Jewish, but Ashkenazi and Sephardic are ethnic identities. You can never practice Judaism and still be Jewish if you have that ethnic background.

Race is a social construct. You can guess if someone is from China or from Sweden by looking at their faces and hair, with a moderate number of exceptions. They are, however, defined geographically.

Jews are a people. A people it is possible to enter by birth, or by conversion. And by birth, only the mother matters, not the father, which is not how genes work.

By halacha it is not possible to leave it, in theory, if you were born into it, but the wisdom of the people considers someone who has formally converted to another religion to have left it.

Just as you can be an American and not care about America or practice American culture, but certain acts can cause your citizenship to be revoked.

A people is not a religion, but neither is it a race.

What holds the Jews together is Jewish civilization. Which is a religious civilization. Its more than a religion - it has languages, secular literatures, holidays with secular aspects, etc. But at its core are "religious" texts and traditions.

No.

You can be ethnically Jewish. That’s a fact.

Traditionally the religious identity of Judaism has been passed through the mother, but that’s changing and is separate from the ethnicity.

Again, please explain what work "ethnicity" is doing here. I think PP explained it beautifully - Judaism is a religions civilization.

[Anonymous]

Again, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are distinct ethnic groups.

That has been substantiated by studies I’ve posted here.

So Judaism has a religious, cultural, and ethnic component. You can be Jewish if you engage one or more of those components.

That’s the point.

[Anonymous]

My grandparents were ALL Ashkenazi Jews.

Genetic studies have shown about 40% of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were gentiles from Sardinia, Corsica, Northern Italy, and Southern France.

Should I take pride in Sardinia? In the achievements of Genoa?

That is absurd.

First and foremost, take pride in your own achievements. Not borrowed glory.

But if you must take pride in a group, take pride in one whose values, traditions, you DO something to preserve and advance.

I am proud of the secular aspects of Jewish culture. Things my actual grandparents participated in, as they did not in the achievements of Northern Italy. In Jewish humor, in Yiddish poetry, in turn of the century Jewish political activism. In secular Zionist ideology. And yes, in the relgious civilization of the Jews - in Talmud and Midrash, in piyyutim, in the ornate structure of halacha, in the philosophy of Rambam and the visions of mystics and niggunim of the hasids.

But I do not take pride in my chromosomes. Which I did nothing to earn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My grandparents were ALL Ashkenazi Jews.

Genetic studies have shown about 40% of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were gentiles from Sardinia, Corsica, Northern Italy, and Southern France.

Should I take pride in Sardinia? In the achievements of Genoa?

That is absurd.

First and foremost, take pride in your own achievements. Not borrowed glory.

But if you must take pride in a group, take pride in one whose values, traditions, you DO something to preserve and advance.

I am proud of the secular aspects of Jewish culture. Things my actual grandparents participated in, as they did not in the achievements of Northern Italy. In Jewish humor, in Yiddish poetry, in turn of the century Jewish political activism. In secular Zionist ideology. And yes, in the relgious civilization of the Jews - in Talmud and Midrash, in piyyutim, in the ornate structure of halacha, in the philosophy of Rambam and the visions of mystics and niggunim of the hasids.

But I do not take pride in my chromosomes. Which I did nothing to earn.

Literal much? Jeez.

OF COURSE I don’t take pride in my chromosomes. I take pride in what they represent, which is a connection to my ancestors, of whom I’m proud. Just like you.