Too early to start thinking W&M/UVA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I understand—I really do. It was something like that at my big box nova hs years ago, even when, at that time, William and Mary’s average SAT scores were higher than UVA’s (and any other public college’s for that matter). We were a group of seniors who just wanted to be at William and Mary. One common response we heard was, why do you want to go there with its grade deflation and lack of bars? That was some time ago. Just know that those kids are wrong. But perceptions do matter and UVA is undeniably one of the hottest schools in the Nation.. Honestly, though, I would also view UVA as something close to a safety school for TJ students. That is, if you can’t get into UVA from TJ, what was the point? My kids are little, but years from now I’d love to have this problem.

If that is true, W&M needs better marketing. If you look at the SCHEV SAT data, which goes back to 2006, UVA had a higher median than W&M for V+M ONLY for 2017 and only by 10 points. (Final 2018 data is not out.) W&M had the higher V+M median for 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, and 2006. (W&M and UVA were tied in 2012 and 2011). That is 9 to 1 in W&M's favor.

If you look at the data on the UVA and W&M web sites, and compare UVA A&S to W&M (the only true apples to apples comparison), W&M had higher V+M scores than UVA for 18 years from 1993 to 2016. UVA was higher only in 1997 and the schools were tied in 2015, 2004, 1999, and 1996.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I understand—I really do. It was something like that at my big box nova hs years ago, even when, at that time, William and Mary’s average SAT scores were higher than UVA’s (and any other public college’s for that matter). We were a group of seniors who just wanted to be at William and Mary. One common response we heard was, why do you want to go there with its grade deflation and lack of bars? That was some time ago. Just know that those kids are wrong. But perceptions do matter and UVA is undeniably one of the hottest schools in the Nation.. Honestly, though, I would also view UVA as something close to a safety school for TJ students. That is, if you can’t get into UVA from TJ, what was the point? My kids are little, but years from now I’d love to have this problem.

If that is true, W&M needs better marketing. If you look at the SCHEV SAT data, which goes back to 2006, UVA had a higher median than W&M for V+M ONLY for 2017 and only by 10 points. (Final 2018 data is not out.) W&M had the higher V+M median for 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, and 2006. (W&M and UVA were tied in 2012 and 2011). That is 9 to 1 in W&M's favor.

If you look at the data on the UVA and W&M web sites, and compare UVA A&S to W&M (the only true apples to apples comparison), W&M had higher V+M scores than UVA for 18 years from 1993 to 2016. UVA was higher only in 1997 and the schools were tied in 2015, 2004, 1999, and 1996.

Yes, their marketing has been horrendous. However, the president who retired a couple days ago labored mightily to remedy that, and a billion dollar fundraising effort is in its latter stages. Time will tell whether the new president was the correct choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

Nerdier cohort? Hard to imagine a much nerdier cohort than what you’ll find at TJ. Try to get over yourself and respect your kid’s choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I understand—I really do. It was something like that at my big box nova hs years ago, even when, at that time, William and Mary’s average SAT scores were higher than UVA’s (and any other public college’s for that matter). We were a group of seniors who just wanted to be at William and Mary. One common response we heard was, why do you want to go there with its grade deflation and lack of bars? That was some time ago. Just know that those kids are wrong. But perceptions do matter and UVA is undeniably one of the hottest schools in the Nation.. Honestly, though, I would also view UVA as something close to a safety school for TJ students. That is, if you can’t get into UVA from TJ, what was the point? My kids are little, but years from now I’d love to have this problem.

[b]If that is true, W&M needs better marketing. If you look at the SCHEV SAT data, which goes back to 2006, UVA had a higher median than W&M for V+M ONLY for 2017 and only by 10 points. (Final 2018 data is not out.) W&M had the higher V+M median for 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, and 2006. (W&M and UVA were tied in 2012 and 2011). That is 9 to 1 in W&M's favor.

If you look at the data on the UVA and W&M web sites, and compare UVA A&S to W&M (the only true apples to apples comparison), W&M had higher V+M scores than UVA for 18 years from 1993 to 2016. UVA was higher only in 1997 and the schools were tied in 2015, 2004, 1999, and 1996.

[/b]

Nice try but you are omitting the obvious - UVA has sailed past W&M in statistics for 2017 and will also for entering class 2018 (yes, not reported yet on SCHEV). UVA had a 1500 SAT top quartile figure (there is a typo in the SCHEV report: 760M + 740V = 1500. You cite to the MEDIAN SAT figure for W&M and say it's only 10 points behind UVA because you picked the Median figure because there is the least discrepancy between UVA and W&M in that category. There is a 20 point gap (UVA leading) in SAT for top quartile, and a 20 point gap for bottom SAT quartile. UVA also beat W&M the the entering students ACTs at 33/32/29. UVA also beat W&M for entering students' GPAs at 4.44/4.29/4.13 compared to W&M's 4.44/4.24 and 4.04.

Now let's look at the accepted class of both schools for 2022 (note that accepted figures are always higher than enrolled (SCHEV) because kids with superlative scores apply to 15 schools and pick one). There some really interesting differentials pop up. W&M's selectivity for 2022 is only 36%. UVA's much more selective at 26.5% of applicants got in. W&M says it has a median ACT of 33 for accepted students. UVA's is already 32 for ENROLLED students at median and 33 at top quartile of enrolled students actually enrolled in 2017. W&M boasts that 87% of the accepted students are in the top ten percent of their high school class. UVA boasts 93% of accepted 2022 class is in top ten percent of their high school class. Finally, I notice real differences in international and diversity stats. UVA has students from only @ 48 countries, UVA has accepted students from 150+ countries (yes, it's larger, I know). UVA's diversity stats are better too. Note UVA's new emphasis on including 10% first-generation college students (418 students). https://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2018/class-of-2022-newly-admitted-students-find-a-home-at-wm.php. And 35% of the accepted 2022 students are from minority backgrounds at UVA. It's much less at W&M. Note also the new University Achievement Award and Blue Ridge Scholarships for disadvantaged or underrepresented students. And finally, note that a much higher yield at UVA is anticipated for this fall so UVA first year students may have to triple up.
https://www.richmond.com/news/local/education/nearly-offered-admission-to-uva-s-class-of/article_2c2695cc-60d8-5020-9e34-a39c98be8683.html. https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-releases-admissions-decisions-and-uva22-begins-trending-grounds. UVA's yield rate has also increased. http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2018/06/class-of-2022-admission-statistics-presented-to-board-of-visitors

I think we really need to wait for the 2022 SCHEV enrollment statistics to make any conclusions. The college admissions world is in tumult. Also, it seems obvious that TJ students would be more attracted to UVA due to size, tech, math, engineering and science programs and variety therein since that is what TJ is!. That doesn't make UVA better, it just makes common sense that more TJ kids would be attracted to UVA over a SLAC. (and I went to a SLAC).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I understand—I really do. It was something like that at my big box nova hs years ago, even when, at that time, William and Mary’s average SAT scores were higher than UVA’s (and any other public college’s for that matter). We were a group of seniors who just wanted to be at William and Mary. One common response we heard was, why do you want to go there with its grade deflation and lack of bars? That was some time ago. Just know that those kids are wrong. But perceptions do matter and UVA is undeniably one of the hottest schools in the Nation.. Honestly, though, I would also view UVA as something close to a safety school for TJ students. That is, if you can’t get into UVA from TJ, what was the point? My kids are little, but years from now I’d love to have this problem.

[b]If that is true, W&M needs better marketing. If you look at the SCHEV SAT data, which goes back to 2006, UVA had a higher median than W&M for V+M ONLY for 2017 and only by 10 points. (Final 2018 data is not out.) W&M had the higher V+M median for 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, and 2006. (W&M and UVA were tied in 2012 and 2011). That is 9 to 1 in W&M's favor.

If you look at the data on the UVA and W&M web sites, and compare UVA A&S to W&M (the only true apples to apples comparison), W&M had higher V+M scores than UVA for 18 years from 1993 to 2016. UVA was higher only in 1997 and the schools were tied in 2015, 2004, 1999, and 1996.

[/b]

Nice try but you are omitting the obvious - UVA has sailed past W&M in statistics for 2017 and will also for entering class 2018 (yes, not reported yet on SCHEV). UVA had a 1500 SAT top quartile figure (there is a typo in the SCHEV report: 760M + 740V = 1500. You cite to the MEDIAN SAT figure for W&M and say it's only 10 points behind UVA because you picked the Median figure because there is the least discrepancy between UVA and W&M in that category. There is a 20 point gap (UVA leading) in SAT for top quartile, and a 20 point gap for bottom SAT quartile. UVA also beat W&M the the entering students ACTs at 33/32/29. UVA also beat W&M for entering students' GPAs at 4.44/4.29/4.13 compared to W&M's 4.44/4.24 and 4.04.

Now let's look at the accepted class of both schools for 2022 (note that accepted figures are always higher than enrolled (SCHEV) because kids with superlative scores apply to 15 schools and pick one). There some really interesting differentials pop up. W&M's selectivity for 2022 is only 36%. UVA's much more selective at 26.5% of applicants got in. W&M says it has a median ACT of 33 for accepted students. UVA's is already 32 for ENROLLED students at median and 33 at top quartile of enrolled students actually enrolled in 2017. W&M boasts that 87% of the accepted students are in the top ten percent of their high school class. UVA boasts 93% of accepted 2022 class is in top ten percent of their high school class. Finally, I notice real differences in international and diversity stats. UVA has students from only @ 48 countries, UVA has accepted students from 150+ countries (yes, it's larger, I know). UVA's diversity stats are better too. Note UVA's new emphasis on including 10% first-generation college students (418 students). https://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2018/class-of-2022-newly-admitted-students-find-a-home-at-wm.php. And 35% of the accepted 2022 students are from minority backgrounds at UVA. It's much less at W&M. Note also the new University Achievement Award and Blue Ridge Scholarships for disadvantaged or underrepresented students. And finally, note that a much higher yield at UVA is anticipated for this fall so UVA first year students may have to triple up.
https://www.richmond.com/news/local/education/nearly-offered-admission-to-uva-s-class-of/article_2c2695cc-60d8-5020-9e34-a39c98be8683.html. https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-releases-admissions-decisions-and-uva22-begins-trending-grounds. UVA's yield rate has also increased. http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2018/06/class-of-2022-admission-statistics-presented-to-board-of-visitors

I think we really need to wait for the 2022 SCHEV enrollment statistics to make any conclusions. The college admissions world is in tumult. Also, it seems obvious that TJ students would be more attracted to UVA due to size, tech, math, engineering and science programs and variety therein since that is what TJ is!. That doesn't make UVA better, it just makes common sense that more TJ kids would be attracted to UVA over a SLAC. (and I went to a SLAC).

"Nice try" is a needlessly condescending and jerky way to start a post. Was any of the data I cited incorrect? You say I "omitted the obvious" in 2017 data, but if you read it again, you can see I clearly cited UVA as having a higher median SAT for 2017. In what way, then, was anything omitted?

My point was simply that, based on historical data, the two schools have fairly comparable admissions stats, and the data support that. W&M, as the data shows, has typically had slightly higher SATs (again, since 2006, UVA only had a higher median for 2017 while W&M had the higher median for 9 years) and UVA has had slightly higher average GPAs. (BTW, most high schools don't report class rank any more -- as little as 30% for top schools in USNews.)

You say I used SAT median data because it provided the "least discrepancy" between UVA and W&M for 2017. I used SAT scores simply because it is the most commonly submitted standardized test for these schools by a significant margin (although the ACT has been gaining in popularity). I chose median because I think it is the most meaningful available single metric when looking at the entire student body. After accusing me of using selective data, you then claim UVA will have higher numbers in 2018 (enrolled class of 2022). That may be true but is speculative on your part and final data is not available on the SCHEV web site (and probably won't be a bit because final numbers aren't submitted until after the start of the school year) or the UVA or W&M sites. (The median SAT for admitted students at both schools appears to have gone up, with a 40 point rise at W&M. It is better to use enrolled numbers, though.)

I've got a number of issues with your other points. First, I don't think admission rate is the best indicator of selectivity. I think it is better to look at the quality of enrolled students. A case in point is be Northeastern University, which is at 19% acceptance rate for class of 2022, significantly lower than UVA. Is that because Northeastern is more selective than UVA (or W&M)? I'd argue it is because they use marketing tactics to induce more students to apply that they can then reject (in order to play the USNews ranking game). If you just look at most recent in-state SCHEV acceptance rates (which seems to lag a year), UVA is at 44.3% and W&M is at 45.1% acceptance rate.

You say UVA has better diversity, but you aren't very clear on supporting data. The SCHEV data doesn't support this. UVA had 13.8% of students getting Pell grants (a proxy for lower income groups) vs 14% for W&M in the latest year of data. UVA has 18% African American, Hispanic, and Native American vs. 23% for W&M. International students were 6.5% at W&M vs. 4.2% at UVA (again based on SCHEV data). You tout UVA for having 10% first-generation students. W&M had 11% first-generation students in last year's class. No real differences there.

Finally, you said "it seems obvious that TJ students would be more attracted to UVA due to size, tech, math, engineering and science programs". The data I've seen for last year had 62 TJ grads attending UVA and 39 W&M. UVA's undergraduate class size is about 2.5X larger than W&M, so W&M's actually had a higher percentage of TJ graduates in the 2021 class than UVA.

Anyway, I've spent far too long on this (and on the SCHEV site). Historically, I would argue they are pretty close in stats. The stats could be changing, but it is better to look at real data that has been standardized (e.g. SCHEV) and have more than one year.

[Anonymous]

UVA and William & Mary has very similar admissions statistics with one big difference: it is far easier to get into W&M if you're a boy. They take boys with high SAT scores and relatively low grades -- they don't do that at UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UVA and William & Mary has very similar admissions statistics with one big difference: it is far easier to get into W&M if you're a boy. They take boys with high SAT scores and relatively low grades -- they don't do that at UVA.

If they do so, it appears they have kept it within Title IX standards. The Title IX investigation against W&M (and also against UVA) was for handling of sexual abuse complaints. It wasn't for admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I understand—I really do. It was something like that at my big box nova hs years ago, even when, at that time, William and Mary’s average SAT scores were higher than UVA’s (and any other public college’s for that matter). We were a group of seniors who just wanted to be at William and Mary. One common response we heard was, why do you want to go there with its grade deflation and lack of bars? That was some time ago. Just know that those kids are wrong. But perceptions do matter and UVA is undeniably one of the hottest schools in the Nation.. Honestly, though, I would also view UVA as something close to a safety school for TJ students. That is, if you can’t get into UVA from TJ, what was the point? My kids are little, but years from now I’d love to have this problem.

[b]If that is true, W&M needs better marketing. If you look at the SCHEV SAT data, which goes back to 2006, UVA had a higher median than W&M for V+M ONLY for 2017 and only by 10 points. (Final 2018 data is not out.) W&M had the higher V+M median for 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, and 2006. (W&M and UVA were tied in 2012 and 2011). That is 9 to 1 in W&M's favor.

If you look at the data on the UVA and W&M web sites, and compare UVA A&S to W&M (the only true apples to apples comparison), W&M had higher V+M scores than UVA for 18 years from 1993 to 2016. UVA was higher only in 1997 and the schools were tied in 2015, 2004, 1999, and 1996.

[/b]

Nice try but you are omitting the obvious - UVA has sailed past W&M in statistics for 2017 and will also for entering class 2018 (yes, not reported yet on SCHEV). UVA had a 1500 SAT top quartile figure (there is a typo in the SCHEV report: 760M + 740V = 1500. You cite to the MEDIAN SAT figure for W&M and say it's only 10 points behind UVA because you picked the Median figure because there is the least discrepancy between UVA and W&M in that category. There is a 20 point gap (UVA leading) in SAT for top quartile, and a 20 point gap for bottom SAT quartile. UVA also beat W&M the the entering students ACTs at 33/32/29. UVA also beat W&M for entering students' GPAs at 4.44/4.29/4.13 compared to W&M's 4.44/4.24 and 4.04.

Now let's look at the accepted class of both schools for 2022 (note that accepted figures are always higher than enrolled (SCHEV) because kids with superlative scores apply to 15 schools and pick one). There some really interesting differentials pop up. W&M's selectivity for 2022 is only 36%. UVA's much more selective at 26.5% of applicants got in. W&M says it has a median ACT of 33 for accepted students. UVA's is already 32 for ENROLLED students at median and 33 at top quartile of enrolled students actually enrolled in 2017. W&M boasts that 87% of the accepted students are in the top ten percent of their high school class. UVA boasts 93% of accepted 2022 class is in top ten percent of their high school class. Finally, I notice real differences in international and diversity stats. UVA has students from only @ 48 countries, UVA has accepted students from 150+ countries (yes, it's larger, I know). UVA's diversity stats are better too. Note UVA's new emphasis on including 10% first-generation college students (418 students). https://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2018/class-of-2022-newly-admitted-students-find-a-home-at-wm.php. And 35% of the accepted 2022 students are from minority backgrounds at UVA. It's much less at W&M. Note also the new University Achievement Award and Blue Ridge Scholarships for disadvantaged or underrepresented students. And finally, note that a much higher yield at UVA is anticipated for this fall so UVA first year students may have to triple up.
https://www.richmond.com/news/local/education/nearly-offered-admission-to-uva-s-class-of/article_2c2695cc-60d8-5020-9e34-a39c98be8683.html. https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-releases-admissions-decisions-and-uva22-begins-trending-grounds. UVA's yield rate has also increased. http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2018/06/class-of-2022-admission-statistics-presented-to-board-of-visitors

I think we really need to wait for the 2022 SCHEV enrollment statistics to make any conclusions. The college admissions world is in tumult. Also, it seems obvious that TJ students would be more attracted to UVA due to size, tech, math, engineering and science programs and variety therein since that is what TJ is!. That doesn't make UVA better, it just makes common sense that more TJ kids would be attracted to UVA over a SLAC. (and I went to a SLAC).

"Nice try" is a needlessly condescending and jerky way to start a post. Was any of the data I cited incorrect? You say I "omitted the obvious" in 2017 data, but if you read it again, you can see I clearly cited UVA as having a higher median SAT for 2017. In what way, then, was anything omitted?

My point was simply that, based on historical data, the two schools have fairly comparable admissions stats, and the data support that. W&M, as the data shows, has typically had slightly higher SATs (again, since 2006, UVA only had a higher median for 2017 while W&M had the higher median for 9 years) and UVA has had slightly higher average GPAs. (BTW, most high schools don't report class rank any more -- as little as 30% for top schools in USNews.)

You say I used SAT median data because it provided the "least discrepancy" between UVA and W&M for 2017. I used SAT scores simply because it is the most commonly submitted standardized test for these schools by a significant margin (although the ACT has been gaining in popularity). I chose median because I think it is the most meaningful available single metric when looking at the entire student body. After accusing me of using selective data, you then claim UVA will have higher numbers in 2018 (enrolled class of 2022). That may be true but is speculative on your part and final data is not available on the SCHEV web site (and probably won't be a bit because final numbers aren't submitted until after the start of the school year) or the UVA or W&M sites. (The median SAT for admitted students at both schools appears to have gone up, with a 40 point rise at W&M. It is better to use enrolled numbers, though.)

I've got a number of issues with your other points. First, I don't think admission rate is the best indicator of selectivity. I think it is better to look at the quality of enrolled students. A case in point is be Northeastern University, which is at 19% acceptance rate for class of 2022, significantly lower than UVA. Is that because Northeastern is more selective than UVA (or W&M)? I'd argue it is because they use marketing tactics to induce more students to apply that they can then reject (in order to play the USNews ranking game). If you just look at most recent in-state SCHEV acceptance rates (which seems to lag a year), UVA is at 44.3% and W&M is at 45.1% acceptance rate.

You say UVA has better diversity, but you aren't very clear on supporting data. The SCHEV data doesn't support this. UVA had 13.8% of students getting Pell grants (a proxy for lower income groups) vs 14% for W&M in the latest year of data. UVA has 18% African American, Hispanic, and Native American vs. 23% for W&M. International students were 6.5% at W&M vs. 4.2% at UVA (again based on SCHEV data). You tout UVA for having 10% first-generation students. W&M had 11% first-generation students in last year's class. No real differences there.

Finally, you said "it seems obvious that TJ students would be more attracted to UVA due to size, tech, math, engineering and science programs". The data I've seen for last year had 62 TJ grads attending UVA and 39 W&M. UVA's undergraduate class size is about 2.5X larger than W&M, so W&M's actually had a higher percentage of TJ graduates in the 2021 class than UVA.

Anyway, I've spent far too long on this (and on the SCHEV site). Historically, I would argue they are pretty close in stats. The stats could be changing, but it is better to look at real data that has been standardized (e.g. SCHEV) and have more than one year.

Supposedly blue blood Princeton has 22% of its students getting Pell grants vs about 14% for UVA and W&M. It also has 17% of its class as first in their families to go to college vs 10% at UVA and 11% at W&M. It also has a higher percentage of African-American and Hispanic students than either Virginia school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I understand—I really do. It was something like that at my big box nova hs years ago, even when, at that time, William and Mary’s average SAT scores were higher than UVA’s (and any other public college’s for that matter). We were a group of seniors who just wanted to be at William and Mary. One common response we heard was, why do you want to go there with its grade deflation and lack of bars? That was some time ago. Just know that those kids are wrong. But perceptions do matter and UVA is undeniably one of the hottest schools in the Nation.. Honestly, though, I would also view UVA as something close to a safety school for TJ students. That is, if you can’t get into UVA from TJ, what was the point? My kids are little, but years from now I’d love to have this problem.

[b]If that is true, W&M needs better marketing. If you look at the SCHEV SAT data, which goes back to 2006, UVA had a higher median than W&M for V+M ONLY for 2017 and only by 10 points. (Final 2018 data is not out.) W&M had the higher V+M median for 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, and 2006. (W&M and UVA were tied in 2012 and 2011). That is 9 to 1 in W&M's favor.

If you look at the data on the UVA and W&M web sites, and compare UVA A&S to W&M (the only true apples to apples comparison), W&M had higher V+M scores than UVA for 18 years from 1993 to 2016. UVA was higher only in 1997 and the schools were tied in 2015, 2004, 1999, and 1996.

[/b]

Nice try but you are omitting the obvious - UVA has sailed past W&M in statistics for 2017 and will also for entering class 2018 (yes, not reported yet on SCHEV). UVA had a 1500 SAT top quartile figure (there is a typo in the SCHEV report: 760M + 740V = 1500. You cite to the MEDIAN SAT figure for W&M and say it's only 10 points behind UVA because you picked the Median figure because there is the least discrepancy between UVA and W&M in that category. There is a 20 point gap (UVA leading) in SAT for top quartile, and a 20 point gap for bottom SAT quartile. UVA also beat W&M the the entering students ACTs at 33/32/29. UVA also beat W&M for entering students' GPAs at 4.44/4.29/4.13 compared to W&M's 4.44/4.24 and 4.04.

Now let's look at the accepted class of both schools for 2022 (note that accepted figures are always higher than enrolled (SCHEV) because kids with superlative scores apply to 15 schools and pick one). There some really interesting differentials pop up. W&M's selectivity for 2022 is only 36%. UVA's much more selective at 26.5% of applicants got in. W&M says it has a median ACT of 33 for accepted students. UVA's is already 32 for ENROLLED students at median and 33 at top quartile of enrolled students actually enrolled in 2017. W&M boasts that 87% of the accepted students are in the top ten percent of their high school class. UVA boasts 93% of accepted 2022 class is in top ten percent of their high school class. Finally, I notice real differences in international and diversity stats. UVA has students from only @ 48 countries, UVA has accepted students from 150+ countries (yes, it's larger, I know). UVA's diversity stats are better too. Note UVA's new emphasis on including 10% first-generation college students (418 students). https://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2018/class-of-2022-newly-admitted-students-find-a-home-at-wm.php. And 35% of the accepted 2022 students are from minority backgrounds at UVA. It's much less at W&M. Note also the new University Achievement Award and Blue Ridge Scholarships for disadvantaged or underrepresented students. And finally, note that a much higher yield at UVA is anticipated for this fall so UVA first year students may have to triple up.
https://www.richmond.com/news/local/education/nearly-offered-admission-to-uva-s-class-of/article_2c2695cc-60d8-5020-9e34-a39c98be8683.html. https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-releases-admissions-decisions-and-uva22-begins-trending-grounds. UVA's yield rate has also increased. http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2018/06/class-of-2022-admission-statistics-presented-to-board-of-visitors

I think we really need to wait for the 2022 SCHEV enrollment statistics to make any conclusions. The college admissions world is in tumult. Also, it seems obvious that TJ students would be more attracted to UVA due to size, tech, math, engineering and science programs and variety therein since that is what TJ is!. That doesn't make UVA better, it just makes common sense that more TJ kids would be attracted to UVA over a SLAC. (and I went to a SLAC).

UVA only had 160 foreign students in the most recent class I've seen data for, so I"m sure the 150 country number is way too high. Foreign applications were down 2%. They are dropping at a number of schools. 9% of all UVA applications were from China (way more than the number of applications from African Americans), but UVA appears to enroll relatively few. This skews the overall admission rate. https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-tops-admission-application-record-third-straight-year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I'd have to think both UVA and W&M are close to safeties for a lot of TJ kids based on the info I've seen. UVA rejects a few more, but is accepting a pretty high percentage. Given that, it would seem to me that a number may be choosing W&M.

Although it is difficult for me to understand, there seems to be a perception in some areas that W&M doesn't do science. Perhaps it is the lack of an engineering program or a misperception of schools that are more similar to LACs. If I recall correctly, though, W&M only trails Berkeley in per capita STEM PHD production from its undergraduates among national public universities. It may not be a perfect indicator, but the schools at the top like Caltech and MIT definitely do science.

My wife got her science degree at W&M and graduate degree from UVA, and she though W&M science undergrads got more focus and better teaching. This was a few years back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

You sound a bit defensive. For plentry of kids, William and Mary is their first choice. I did my undergrad there and UVA for grad school. I wouldn’t trade that decision for anything.

PP here d nice catch. I feel a bit defensive. I wish we could afford to send DC to any $70k/ college they wanted, but we can’t. Not with two kids and possible grad school down the line. And we are in the donut hole and top SLACs have no merit aid. I am a bit defensive about not being able to afford Williams, Amherst, etc.

And I feel defensive about the fact DC wants WM, not UVA. At TJ, WM is viewed by many kids as far inferior to UVA, and a safety school. You apply to UVA and WM, and if you don’t get into UVA, you are stuck at WM. I think this is ridiculous, and love the more LAC vibe, smaller classes, high percent who go on to get a PhD, etc. But if I tell a group of TJ parents my kid wants WM, they automatically assume it’s because my kid cannot get into UVA, rather than because DC likes it better. It’s ridiculous. But there you have it.

I understand—I really do. It was something like that at my big box nova hs years ago, even when, at that time, William and Mary’s average SAT scores were higher than UVA’s (and any other public college’s for that matter). We were a group of seniors who just wanted to be at William and Mary. One common response we heard was, why do you want to go there with its grade deflation and lack of bars? That was some time ago. Just know that those kids are wrong. But perceptions do matter and UVA is undeniably one of the hottest schools in the Nation.. Honestly, though, I would also view UVA as something close to a safety school for TJ students. That is, if you can’t get into UVA from TJ, what was the point? My kids are little, but years from now I’d love to have this problem.

[b]If that is true, W&M needs better marketing. If you look at the SCHEV SAT data, which goes back to 2006, UVA had a higher median than W&M for V+M ONLY for 2017 and only by 10 points. (Final 2018 data is not out.) W&M had the higher V+M median for 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, and 2006. (W&M and UVA were tied in 2012 and 2011). That is 9 to 1 in W&M's favor.

If you look at the data on the UVA and W&M web sites, and compare UVA A&S to W&M (the only true apples to apples comparison), W&M had higher V+M scores than UVA for 18 years from 1993 to 2016. UVA was higher only in 1997 and the schools were tied in 2015, 2004, 1999, and 1996.

[/b]

Nice try but you are omitting the obvious - UVA has sailed past W&M in statistics for 2017 and will also for entering class 2018 (yes, not reported yet on SCHEV). UVA had a 1500 SAT top quartile figure (there is a typo in the SCHEV report: 760M + 740V = 1500. You cite to the MEDIAN SAT figure for W&M and say it's only 10 points behind UVA because you picked the Median figure because there is the least discrepancy between UVA and W&M in that category. There is a 20 point gap (UVA leading) in SAT for top quartile, and a 20 point gap for bottom SAT quartile. UVA also beat W&M the the entering students ACTs at 33/32/29. UVA also beat W&M for entering students' GPAs at 4.44/4.29/4.13 compared to W&M's 4.44/4.24 and 4.04.

Now let's look at the accepted class of both schools for 2022 (note that accepted figures are always higher than enrolled (SCHEV) because kids with superlative scores apply to 15 schools and pick one). There some really interesting differentials pop up. W&M's selectivity for 2022 is only 36%. UVA's much more selective at 26.5% of applicants got in. W&M says it has a median ACT of 33 for accepted students. UVA's is already 32 for ENROLLED students at median and 33 at top quartile of enrolled students actually enrolled in 2017. W&M boasts that 87% of the accepted students are in the top ten percent of their high school class. UVA boasts 93% of accepted 2022 class is in top ten percent of their high school class. Finally, I notice real differences in international and diversity stats. UVA has students from only @ 48 countries, UVA has accepted students from 150+ countries (yes, it's larger, I know). UVA's diversity stats are better too. Note UVA's new emphasis on including 10% first-generation college students (418 students). https://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2018/class-of-2022-newly-admitted-students-find-a-home-at-wm.php. And 35% of the accepted 2022 students are from minority backgrounds at UVA. It's much less at W&M. Note also the new University Achievement Award and Blue Ridge Scholarships for disadvantaged or underrepresented students. And finally, note that a much higher yield at UVA is anticipated for this fall so UVA first year students may have to triple up.
https://www.richmond.com/news/local/education/nearly-offered-admission-to-uva-s-class-of/article_2c2695cc-60d8-5020-9e34-a39c98be8683.html. https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-releases-admissions-decisions-and-uva22-begins-trending-grounds. UVA's yield rate has also increased. http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2018/06/class-of-2022-admission-statistics-presented-to-board-of-visitors

I think we really need to wait for the 2022 SCHEV enrollment statistics to make any conclusions. The college admissions world is in tumult. Also, it seems obvious that TJ students would be more attracted to UVA due to size, tech, math, engineering and science programs and variety therein since that is what TJ is!. That doesn't make UVA better, it just makes common sense that more TJ kids would be attracted to UVA over a SLAC. (and I went to a SLAC).

UVA only had 160 foreign students in the most recent class I've seen data for, so I"m sure the 150 country number is way too high. Foreign applications were down 2%. They are dropping at a number of schools. 9% of all UVA applications were from China (way more than the number of applications from African Americans), but UVA appears to enroll relatively few. This skews the overall admission rate. https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-tops-admission-application-record-third-straight-year

Please see "Top Sending Countries" and "All Sending Countries" for lists of countries. https://iso.virginia.edu/sites/iso.virginia.edu/files/2015-2016%20ISO_0.pdf

[Anonymous]

From UVA re Class of 2022: "UVA’s applicants hail from all 50 states and 147 countries. The most international applications were from China (3,254), followed by India (458) and Korea (423)"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From UVA re Class of 2022: "UVA’s applicants hail from all 50 states and 147 countries. The most international applications were from China (3,254), followed by India (458) and Korea (423)"

And there we have the disconnect..

Applicants =/= acceptances =/= attending

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Believe it or not (and in this area, I realize not) not every kid’s first choice is UVA. I have a TJ kid who has the stats to get in. Not even applying. Wants a nerdier cohort, and a much smaller school, so WM is the in state first choice. Male (which really does matter at WM), middle of the class, 1540 SATs. Should be in easily. Second choice is Followed by VT with some grumbling, because they have a spec8alized program he is interested in. But also looking at SLACs with strong physical science programs.

Point is, different kids want different things out of college. But, I would not start counting UVA/WM chickens freshman year— especially if you do not have a kid at TJ, where most of the UVA applicants, and nearly all WM applicants will get in. My DC2 is at a strong base school. Strong freshman year. No way I would make college predictions before at least another year of grades are on the books and we have SAT scores.

Nerdier cohort? Hard to imagine a much nerdier cohort than what you’ll find at TJ. Try to get over yourself and respect your kid’s choice.

Nerdier cohort than UVA, not TJ. Loves the TJ cohort.

And I 100% respect his choice. Having visited WM and UVA, I think it is the right one. Without a doubt. I’m not sure how you could have gotten I disagree with his choice out of that. A lot of TJ parents disagree. I think it’s a great call.

[Anonymous]

UVA students, faculty and staff come from 142 countries. http://www.virginia.edu/uvaglobal/facts.html