Current MCPS language immersion programs are incredibly classist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Right, so a logical conclusion would be to get rid of the immersion program?

Right. If money were falling from the skies, then the immersion programs would be fine. But when classes are overflowing, there are two classes to a special, bell times are crazy because the district doesn't have the money to make the change correctly, etc, then I think the language immersions are indefensible considering the class/access issues at play.

I disagree. Immersion and magnet programs need to be increased throughout the county.

With what funds? Right now instruction is going downhill for basically everyone BUT the immersion kids, who are the only ones whose class size is capped. How is that defensible and how would MCPS afford to expand it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Right, so a logical conclusion would be to get rid of the immersion program?

Right. If money were falling from the skies, then the immersion programs would be fine. But when classes are overflowing, there are two classes to a special, bell times are crazy because the district doesn't have the money to make the change correctly, etc, then I think the language immersions are indefensible considering the class/access issues at play.

I disagree. Immersion and magnet programs need to be increased throughout the county.

With what funds? Right now instruction is going downhill for basically everyone BUT the immersion kids, who are the only ones whose class size is capped. How is that defensible and how would MCPS afford to expand it?

So don't cap the class sizes for the immersion classes. If kids move into the catchment area for a school with an immersion program, add them to all K classes. This really won't work after 1st grade though given the language proficiency issues.

Immersion programs are the cheapest of all the magnet programs. You need teachers that speak the target language, but those teachers get the same salary/benefits as other MCPS teachers. Buses are already in place for other magnet programs.

[Anonymous]

"This whole argument against immersion is arguing from the position of the haves being content in there situation and not wanting any others in there zone"

Nope. Some of us are also in DCC but find it extremely unfair that neighbors that knew about the program in time to apply won a huge lottery ticket for their entire family's education in MCPS. it is just extremely unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Lady, you're confused. I believe you're talking about "special ed," that well-intended and VERY EXPENSIVE program that wealthier folks know how to manipulate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Lady, you're confused. I believe you're talking about "special ed," that well-intended and VERY EXPENSIVE program that wealthier folks know how to manipulate.

FAPE is a legal requirement - language immersion that benefits a small slice of the population is not. Look, it get it. You got in and you want to make sure your snowflake continues to get French immersion, which will position them for middle school admissions. But we are in a constrained funding environment and language immersion is low hanging fruit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"This whole argument against immersion is arguing from the position of the haves being content in there situation and not wanting any others in there zone"

Nope. Some of us are also in DCC but find it extremely unfair that neighbors that knew about the program in time to apply won a huge lottery ticket for their entire family's education in MCPS. it is just extremely unfair.

So change the application process but "I didn't know about it" is not an argument for eliminating a program. But I can see how it would be difficult starting a program in Kindergarten (which is the best time to start) and notifying families without knowing what families will be enrolling in Mcps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Totally agree OP.

The county does NOT advertise the immersion program at all in my experience. You need to know that you need to register & apply in Feb rather than as part of the normal registration in the spring. I was aware of spring registration but had no idea until i got to then that the immersion deadlines were done. It sucked.

The current system definitely is set up to give HUGE benefits to families that qualify for the program - you get access to a different school pyramid which can be much better in MS and potentially HS; you get subsequent kids into the program too.

Those unaware of the lottery's deadlines or simply losers in the lottery get zip while the winners get 9+ years at their preferred school location for multiple kids.

It's a very very unfair system.

They don't get zip. They get the general MCPS public-school education.

I still want to know how the immersion programs at Burnt Mills, Rock Creek Forest, and Rolling Terrace are classist, by the way. All three are all local-school preference programs.

NO, RCFES is not local school preference. There is no homeschool preference.

[Anonymous]

^ no I think there is plenty they could do if they wanted to make it more equitable:
1) post card flyers to all home addresses in the county
2) change the deadline of the lottery or of the general registration so that you can get info on the lottery and apply when doing the much more widelt publicized standard registration
3) elimimate sibling preference
4) discontinue the immersion preference to continue through MS and HS outside the home zone.

All of these would be useful steps to making it a slightly more equitable to poor a huge benefit on one kid when others get zip on the language side.

[Anonymous]

Above was in reply to 16:50

[Anonymous]

^ "...slightly more equitable given that you are pouring..."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Lady, you're confused. I believe you're talking about "special ed," that well-intended and VERY EXPENSIVE program that wealthier folks know how to manipulate.

FAPE is a legal requirement - language immersion that benefits a small slice of the population is not. Look, it get it. You got in and you want to make sure your snowflake continues to get French immersion, which will position them for middle school admissions. But we are in a constrained funding environment and language immersion is low hanging fruit.

Immersion is insignificant to any budgeting issue

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Current MCPS language immersion programs are incredibly classist;
-requires parent to do research (parents with multiple jobs no time, illiterate parents are not informed)
-available to only for families with flexible schedules to drive to school, or a potentially very long bus ride (if there is a route)

-also big breeders who get kid in get all their subsequent kids in which slims the lottery greatly.


The program should be either eliminated or expanded to serve all. As is now it is just a "leg up for the upwardly mobile" .

Here is a better language immersion program in Evanston that is more equitable and I could get on board with
http://www.district65.net/Page/528

I have some of the same issues with the program as it currently stands but don't have enough date to decide if it's classist. Thinking about it I guess it would be fairly simple for the county to look at this issue and I am sure (or hope?) that they are as part of the study that prompted the survey. It would be interesting to compare FARM rates for the immersion programs and the regular program at a given school but what I'm more interested in is the number or at least % of students that apply to the immersion program from each home school for Kindergarten and the number of these (again by home school) that are FARMS. It seems that this would give a good picture of whether they really are "elistist" (for lack of a better term).

Based only on my own observations involving a limited sample size and here say I definitely think the program is used by some well-educated middle class families to avoid sending their children to their local school.

I agree that the application process is definitely a barrier to some as you suggest. Illiteracy and lack of time are possible barriers as well as lake of access to computers and/or the internet. (Yes I know the library has free computers available but it is not the same as the 24/7 access in our homes that so many of us now take for granted.) In addition, I question whether there is enough information about the programs actually put out in the community that many would even know to look. I have a child in Kindergarten this year and I didn't find out about the program until after the deadline and only by chance from a friend.


(As for your comment about "big breeders" - WTH???? I mean even if you didn't say it in such an awful way, it just doesn't make sense. I'm not aware of any positive correlation between high SES level and larger number of children.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Lady, you're confused. I believe you're talking about "special ed," that well-intended and VERY EXPENSIVE program that wealthier folks know how to manipulate.

FAPE is a legal requirement - language immersion that benefits a small slice of the population is not. Look, it get it. You got in and you want to make sure your snowflake continues to get French immersion, which will position them for middle school admissions. But we are in a constrained funding environment and language immersion is low hanging fruit.

Immersion is insignificant to any budgeting issue

+1. The crazy lady here has a funny pet peeve. Probably due to a mix of envy with incompetence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ no I think there is plenty they could do if they wanted to make it more equitable:
1) post card flyers to all home addresses in the county
2) change the deadline of the lottery or of the general registration so that you can get info on the lottery and apply when doing the much more widelt publicized standard registration
3) elimimate sibling preference
4) discontinue the immersion preference to continue through MS and HS outside the home zone.

All of these would be useful steps to making it a slightly more equitable to poor a huge benefit on one kid when others get zip on the language side.

POURING a HUGE benefit?

I think it would be great if MCPS had more publicity about the immersion programs, but then people on DCUM would be complaining that MCPS is wasting money on robocalls and postcards. I also think it would be great if MCPS had foreign-language instructions in all of the school; that doesn't mean that MCPS should abolish the immersion programs, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ no I think there is plenty they could do if they wanted to make it more equitable:
1) post card flyers to all home addresses in the county
2) change the deadline of the lottery or of the general registration so that you can get info on the lottery and apply when doing the much more widelt publicized standard registration
3) elimimate sibling preference
4) discontinue the immersion preference to continue through MS and HS outside the home zone.

All of these would be useful steps to making it a slightly more equitable to poor a huge benefit on one kid when others get zip on the language side.

POURING a HUGE benefit?

I think it would be great if MCPS had more publicity about the immersion programs, but then people on DCUM would be complaining that MCPS is wasting money on robocalls and postcards. I also think it would be great if MCPS had foreign-language instructions in all of the school; that doesn't mean that MCPS should abolish the immersion programs, though.

Whiners LOVE DCUM. What a great platform to feel important.