Current MCPS language immersion programs are incredibly classist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We found out about the language immersion program from a friend. Definitely had to do more research to fully understand the pros/cons and how to apply. I agree. For a family without the time, education or resources, this program is a bit out of reach, but so are a lot of other MCPS programs. There are lots of opportunities I hear about after the fact. Why attack language immersion? Maybe MCPS can do a better job promoting all the different opportunities. Regarding travel, we used a magnet bus route that worked out great. It was a long ride, for many other families as well, and there were no complaints. We all knew that was part of the deal. No complaints from the kids either who created great memories and lifelong friends. That said, the program is not the best fit for every family and coming from the perspective of "getting a leg up" is not the best way to embark on this huge commitment.

Can you give some examples of other opportunities?

I am assume you are asking because you aren't aware of any other opportunities. Why single out language immersion?

Language immersion is the most egregious because it relies on having information that you cannot have unless you are already in the school system or have friends who tell you about it. Other lottery programs are less classist because a person can find out about them when their child is already in school, but the language immersion programs require that you be aware of the program and in a position to register your child for kindergarten the February before they actually attend.

As a result, it skews heavily middle class.

[Anonymous]

Wow... our upper county immersion school bus is packed full of kids that are not middle/upper middle class. I know an interact with many families in the program and there are many who come from modest means. Our immersion program has kids of all ethnic backgrounds. I know a family where the wife cannot make enough to pay for daycare, stays home and therefore is able to be "flexible" enough to negotiate transportation, etc. I've talked to both upper and lower class families outside of the program about the immersion and many have no desire to do it even if they have the means. So its not a "class" issue at all.

Most of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I'm sure most apply to these programs for the language immersion experience, I wonder how many apply for other reasons--capped class size, access to the different "pyramid" an earlier poster mentioned, etc. In this case their main goal is to escape the "general MCPS" system rather than the language immersion (though that's what they accept for the benefits they perceive).

I would love to know this information. It would put the question to rest about whether all families are trying to escape their "bad" school pyramid for a "good" one. We are only in K, so we haven't gotten to know a lot of the families yet, but the ones we do know have entered the program for the language benefits and not the school pyramid. Again, we aren't at RCF, so the proportion of families who apply for the school pyramid may be different there.

I do know one family who entered the lottery to escape a perceived bad elementary. They are at Maryvale FI now. It does happen. I don't think it happens to the extent that many DCUM posters think it does.

Maybe those running the evaluation of choice programs in MCPS should do the survey of current parents or even parents that applied for the immersion lottery and didn't get in to see how many applied for benefits other than language.

No one admits that they apply to escape their own school, at least not directly. I can tell you that are RCF a really high number of the immersion students live in the DCC. Take that for what you will.

Here we go again.

Correlation and causation aren't the same thing. You could just as easily conclude that parents who live in Takoma Park and Silver Spring are more internationally minded. Or that they have more Spanish speaking neighbors and therefore view Spanish as an important skill. Or that Silver Spring and Takoma Park have more parents who work in international development and feel language experience is important for their kids. I bet there are more Peace Corps alum in TPSS too.

My kids went through RCF/Westland and are now back in the DCC for high school. It was a big investment in time and attention to keep them in those programs and there were many downsides. The language issue was valued highly by all the parents I knew when my kid was there.

I know of at least 3 families within 3 blocks of our house that applied to and were accepted at immersion programs within the past 3 years. The ONLY reason they applied was because the neighborhood school is not considered a great option. Each of these families expressed concern about their children adjusting to the language, and it was viewed almost as a sacrifice/risk, but one that was preferable to attending the neighborhood school. I spoke with all of them, because it was our plan as well. I was told, and I quote "we looked at [local school] and we just couldn't do it." This isn't everyone, but this is a very real dynamic in some neighborhoods in Silver Spring. I know there are other reasons, but in some neighborhoods where the parents have decided for whatever reason that they don't have faith in their assigned school, they apply to the lottery and hope for a good outcome. Anyone who thinks this isn't a dynamic and is just some random and unconfirmed theory should just come to our hood and talk to the parents, especially those who did NOT get in! You'll get an earful about the mass exodus from our local school (ours being one of the poorest in the county) and how effectively and completely it diminishes middle class enrollment at the local school.

This is absolutely true. This is a well-known tactic and efforts to encourage kids to return to their home schools after the immersion program ends (after middle school) as a way to alleviate overcrowding of certain cluster high schools have been met with a lot opposition and argument.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree with you OP on most points. MCPS has such a ridiculous system with the Immersion Programs and HGCs in ES.

Please comment on the MCPS Choice Survey link!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We found out about the language immersion program from a friend. Definitely had to do more research to fully understand the pros/cons and how to apply. I agree. For a family without the time, education or resources, this program is a bit out of reach, but so are a lot of other MCPS programs. There are lots of opportunities I hear about after the fact. Why attack language immersion? Maybe MCPS can do a better job promoting all the different opportunities. Regarding travel, we used a magnet bus route that worked out great. It was a long ride, for many other families as well, and there were no complaints. We all knew that was part of the deal. No complaints from the kids either who created great memories and lifelong friends. That said, the program is not the best fit for every family and coming from the perspective of "getting a leg up" is not the best way to embark on this huge commitment.

Can you give some examples of other opportunities?

I am assume you are asking because you aren't aware of any other opportunities. Why single out language immersion?

Language immersion is the most egregious because it relies on having information that you cannot have unless you are already in the school system or have friends who tell you about it. Other lottery programs are less classist because a person can find out about them when their child is already in school, but the language immersion programs require that you be aware of the program and in a position to register your child for kindergarten the February before they actually attend.

As a result, it skews heavily middle class.

Really, lower class people don't talk, have friends and inform each other about school programs?!?! I was informed about immersion from a family with an HHI of ~50,000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We found out about the language immersion program from a friend. Definitely had to do more research to fully understand the pros/cons and how to apply. I agree. For a family without the time, education or resources, this program is a bit out of reach, but so are a lot of other MCPS programs. There are lots of opportunities I hear about after the fact. Why attack language immersion? Maybe MCPS can do a better job promoting all the different opportunities. Regarding travel, we used a magnet bus route that worked out great. It was a long ride, for many other families as well, and there were no complaints. We all knew that was part of the deal. No complaints from the kids either who created great memories and lifelong friends. That said, the program is not the best fit for every family and coming from the perspective of "getting a leg up" is not the best way to embark on this huge commitment.

Can you give some examples of other opportunities?

I am assume you are asking because you aren't aware of any other opportunities. Why single out language immersion?

Language immersion is the most egregious because it relies on having information that you cannot have unless you are already in the school system or have friends who tell you about it. Other lottery programs are less classist because a person can find out about them when their child is already in school, but the language immersion programs require that you be aware of the program and in a position to register your child for kindergarten the February before they actually attend.

As a result, it skews heavily middle class.

Really, lower class people don't talk, have friends and inform each other about school programs?!?! I was informed about immersion from a family with an HHI of ~50,000.

When you go the MCPS website, there is general information about how to enroll your child in school:

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/info/enroll/

There is absolutely no mention of options other than enrolling your child in a school based on your home address. There's no mention of language immersion options. There's no mention of gifted and talented programs. There's no mention of any magnet programs. There's a gifted and talented elementary school right around the corner from us and I had no clue about it for years. Why are you singling out language immersion? That said, I don't believe that program options are set up to weed people who don't happen to be as informed or resourceful. I would definitely let your voice be heard about how to better publicize all available options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We found out about the language immersion program from a friend. Definitely had to do more research to fully understand the pros/cons and how to apply. I agree. For a family without the time, education or resources, this program is a bit out of reach, but so are a lot of other MCPS programs. There are lots of opportunities I hear about after the fact. Why attack language immersion? Maybe MCPS can do a better job promoting all the different opportunities. Regarding travel, we used a magnet bus route that worked out great. It was a long ride, for many other families as well, and there were no complaints. We all knew that was part of the deal. No complaints from the kids either who created great memories and lifelong friends. That said, the program is not the best fit for every family and coming from the perspective of "getting a leg up" is not the best way to embark on this huge commitment.

Can you give some examples of other opportunities?

I am assume you are asking because you aren't aware of any other opportunities. Why single out language immersion?

Language immersion is the most egregious because it relies on having information that you cannot have unless you are already in the school system or have friends who tell you about it. Other lottery programs are less classist because a person can find out about them when their child is already in school, but the language immersion programs require that you be aware of the program and in a position to register your child for kindergarten the February before they actually attend.

As a result, it skews heavily middle class.

Really, lower class people don't talk, have friends and inform each other about school programs?!?! I was informed about immersion from a family with an HHI of ~50,000.

When you go the MCPS website, there is general information about how to enroll your child in school:

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/info/enroll/

There is absolutely no mention of options other than enrolling your child in a school based on your home address. There's no mention of language immersion options. There's no mention of gifted and talented programs. There's no mention of any magnet programs. There's a gifted and talented elementary school right around the corner from us and I had no clue about it for years. Why are you singling out language immersion? That said, I don't believe that program options are set up to weed people who don't happen to be as informed or resourceful. I would definitely let your voice be heard about how to better publicize all available options.

Exactly.. This whole argument against immersion is arguing from the position of the haves being content in there situation and not wanting any others in there zone. Fine! It doesn't matter if the immersion kids are middle class from DCC. If it was poor kids from Gaithersburg would the argument disappear?!?! No it wouldn't. You just don't want anyone in your school so say that. Where can the immersion kids go that they will be accepted and not ridiculed is the question.

Lotteries will always leave some with sour grapes.. "...I know because I was about to do the same thing...." So if you got in wouldn't be here making the same argument would you? No matter what special program is dreamed up if spots are limited, someone's not going to be happy. Here in MCPS, in DC across the country. But these programs do have value. Poor and wealthy alike can and do benefit from them. But we can't just eliminate programs because of assumptions that can never be proved and are frankly irrelevant. Aim to improve how info on these programs is disseminated which is the main issue preventing all who would and haven't applied. Then expand the program because its clearly popular due to the many hurt feelings in here right now.

[Anonymous]

I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

[Anonymous]

For those who are equating the HGC process with the language immersion lottery, I think that is off base. The problem with immersion is you must get an MCPS student number before your child is in the system. For the HGC the school district sends an application to every single 3rd grader and once you are in the system the school's typically notify parents about the opportunity as well. And for the MS options you are practically hit over the head with info. It's really just the immersion that is harder to apply to if you don't have a child in mcps yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Easy web access is available at any public library, by the way, free of charge.

Yes, but some people, like OP, are so much in love with their own blah-blah-blah that they always find some excuse to whine.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Right, so a logical conclusion would be to get rid of the immersion program?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you who are resentful of immersion, maybe listen to this:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

IMO we should be encouraging MCPS to voluntarily integrate schools by setting up special programs in lowe performing schools. Getting rid of magnets is just going to further the segregation of MCPS, which will lead to more panicky efforts by the BoE to "close the achievement gap" in ways that aren't proven, cost lots of money, and are largely ineffective.

I hope people log on to the comment page (today is the last day) and support magent and lottery programs as a way to integrate schools. My child is in a high school magnet in a very low performing school -- she's getting very high level material and enriched content and her classes are very diverse. The teachers are great and teach both the magnet and neighborhood kids -- the enriched STEM content is available to all.

But in the immersion programs the neighbourhood programs hardly mix at all except for specials. My kid is in the English side at one school and only knows immersion kids because of aftercare and sports. And those two activities have almost no minority kids in them and certainly no low income kids. So, at least on the elementary level I don't see how it integrates at all. If anything, it shows a sharp contrast between the two programs.

But you could say the same thing for kids in two different kindergarten classes regardless of the immersion program. My kid barely knows any of the other kids in his school who are in the other K classes (immersion or not) because he only sees them during recess/lunch (and maybe specials, though I don't know if they combine there).

Make the whole school immersion! Though I'm sure there are some for whom this is their home school who don't want to be in an immersion program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Right, so a logical conclusion would be to get rid of the immersion program?

Right. If money were falling from the skies, then the immersion programs would be fine. But when classes are overflowing, there are two classes to a special, bell times are crazy because the district doesn't have the money to make the change correctly, etc, then I think the language immersions are indefensible considering the class/access issues at play.

[Anonymous]

You can still submit comments to MCPS about the immersion and other magnets but the deadline is tonight. It's very easy to do online.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the bigger question is what is the overall purpose of the immersion programs when it serves so few?

Right, so a logical conclusion would be to get rid of the immersion program?

Right. If money were falling from the skies, then the immersion programs would be fine. But when classes are overflowing, there are two classes to a special, bell times are crazy because the district doesn't have the money to make the change correctly, etc, then I think the language immersions are indefensible considering the class/access issues at play.

I disagree. Immersion and magnet programs need to be increased throughout the county.