Feminism, femininity, and marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

Seriously, you are OUT OF IT. Most of the kids at our suburban VA high school went in groups to prom, or with friends. My daughter's boyfriend goes to another school and she went to her prom with a bunch of girlfriends. Socializing is different these days, Gramps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they want a woman to stay home with the kids and cook, there are plenty of women who enjoy that out there, who have made the choice to do that instead of a career (but the choice is thanks to feminism).

One of the allegations in the post is that there is social pressure by feminists against women who are content with running a family.

This is my takeaway as well. I'm a feminist, but I think the feminist movement in it's current incarnation rewards women for developing traditionally masculine traits (ambition and competitiveness come to mind) while distancing itself from the "softer, gentler" feminine image. It encourages women to do well and to strive mightily in the public sphere, but seems to dismiss (or just ignore) the call of the domestic.

See, as a feminist and the mother of a girl child, it just breaks my heart that we are still considering ambition and competitiveness to be "masculine" traits while "soft" and "gentle" are feminine traits. This is not good for girls OR boys. I actually think that the pressure that ambitious, competitive (read: professional) women face is that they are expected to demonstrate ambition and competition at work, are expected to be nurturing and mothering and loving and intimate at home and are also expected to take care of the house. The pendulum has not swung from "women stay home, do all work" to "women avoid home, do not marry." It's swung from "women stay home, do all work" to "women do all work, while also being out of the house for 8-10 hours per day." It's exhausting!

YES, THIS!

I have a girl and a boy. I am teaching them that they both need to pull their weight at home and at work. That is the only fair way.

The only real way to teach this is for you and your spouse to model this. How's it going?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they want a woman to stay home with the kids and cook, there are plenty of women who enjoy that out there, who have made the choice to do that instead of a career (but the choice is thanks to feminism).

One of the allegations in the post is that there is social pressure by feminists against women who are content with running a family.

This is my takeaway as well. I'm a feminist, but I think the feminist movement in it's current incarnation rewards women for developing traditionally masculine traits (ambition and competitiveness come to mind) while distancing itself from the "softer, gentler" feminine image. It encourages women to do well and to strive mightily in the public sphere, but seems to dismiss (or just ignore) the call of the domestic.

See, as a feminist and the mother of a girl child, it just breaks my heart that we are still considering ambition and competitiveness to be "masculine" traits while "soft" and "gentle" are feminine traits. This is not good for girls OR boys. I actually think that the pressure that ambitious, competitive (read: professional) women face is that they are expected to demonstrate ambition and competition at work, are expected to be nurturing and mothering and loving and intimate at home and are also expected to take care of the house. The pendulum has not swung from "women stay home, do all work" to "women avoid home, do not marry." It's swung from "women stay home, do all work" to "women do all work, while also being out of the house for 8-10 hours per day." It's exhausting!

YES, THIS!

I have a girl and a boy. I am teaching them that they both need to pull their weight at home and at work. That is the only fair way.

The only real way to teach this is for you and your spouse to model this. How's it going?

NP here with the burning desire to let you know that as we "speak," DS--4 years old--is helping DH tidy up so they can vacuum together. I'm making dinner, after cleaning the kitchen. DH has just put his laundry on the wash; I'll do DS's and my laundry tomorrow. DH will make dinner this weekend. (He's a better cook than I am anyway, but I'm working on it!)

DS has no idea that there are traditionally gendered household chores. I'm hoping that sticks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Men act like tough guys because the girls aren't vying for the attention of the soft and gentle men. Go to the high school and colleges - what are the qualities of the guys the prettiest girls (who, generally speaking, have the most options when it comes to guys) are trying to date? Are those guys displaying traditionally masculine traits? Are those guys displaying soft and gentle traits? Or is it an even mix between those things?

Because men will, by and large, try to develop those traits that will get them laid by the prettiest women.

Are you suggesting that this standard is a good standard? That it is supportive and empowering to everyone? That these standards are positive for society?

Not putting normative values on it, I'm describing the process. You get what's rewarded. If you can figure out a way to cause pretty girls to be sexually excited by soft and gentle men, I think societal gender dynamics will change pretty quickly.

Only pretty girls? Why would feminists only care about what pretty girls want? Feminists care about all girls, and all boys, too. Pretty, athletic, tough, soft, in shape, out of shape, tall, short, etc. I don't think feminism exists so that men get rewarded by a pretty girl for acting a certain way. Girls are not a reward. Girls are human beings. Girls and boys should have a choice in who they are and what they do. Who they are attracted to is part of that choice, but it's not any movement's fault if pretty girls aren't choosing you personally. Understand?

What I'm telling you is what men respond to. If you tell boys, as they're growing up, that some day, maybe when he's 30, if he's soft and gentle, a plain looking woman with good credentials will want to enter into a mutually beneficial family arrangement, he's not going to aspire to those traits. Meanwhile, *right now* the hottest girls in school are flirting outrageously with the strong, fast, loud, aggressive guy. And if you don't think that's who is getting the most attention from women (plain and attractive alike) during the years in and around puberty when a lot of gender-dynamics are being formed, you're kidding yourself.

The whole argument will get no where. It's about genetics and no matter how hard you wish it you can't bend narural law. The prettiest and strongest will prevail. It happens all over the animal kingdom. Need i recite the millions of ways the creaturse of this planet display beauty and strength to attract a desirable mate? Humans are no different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

Seriously, you are OUT OF IT. Most of the kids at our suburban VA high school went in groups to prom, or with friends. My daughter's boyfriend goes to another school and she went to her prom with a bunch of girlfriends. Socializing is different these days, Gramps.

I'm definitely way younger than you, I graduated HS 7 years ago (Sidwell if you must) and I'm sorry to say, but you are off. The strongest most athletic guys get the most desirable (read pretty) girls. the president of the chess club is not getting even a second glance. Same thing in college.

Oh and short men? Eeeek, they better really bring something great. I feel bad for men of small stature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

Seriously, you are OUT OF IT. Most of the kids at our suburban VA high school went in groups to prom, or with friends. My daughter's boyfriend goes to another school and she went to her prom with a bunch of girlfriends. Socializing is different these days, Gramps.

I'm definitely way younger than you, I graduated HS 7 years ago (Sidwell if you must) and I'm sorry to say, but you are off. The strongest most athletic guys get the most desirable (read pretty) girls. the president of the chess club is not getting even a second glance. Same thing in college.

Oh and short men? Eeeek, they better really bring something great. I feel bad for men of small stature.

+1 I kind of feel that the posters talking about how nerds are so hot right now are being hypocrites or in some kind of fairy land. Women always prefer tall handsome athletic men. Bonus points if they are rich aka fifty shades of grey (if he wasn't so rich Mr Gray just be a twisted perv). Vs, Mark Zuckerberg may be the richest man in the world but I still don't get the hots for nerdy him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

Seriously, you are OUT OF IT. Most of the kids at our suburban VA high school went in groups to prom, or with friends. My daughter's boyfriend goes to another school and she went to her prom with a bunch of girlfriends. Socializing is different these days, Gramps.

I'm definitely way younger than you, I graduated HS 7 years ago (Sidwell if you must) and I'm sorry to say, but you are off. The strongest most athletic guys get the most desirable (read pretty) girls. the president of the chess club is not getting even a second glance. Same thing in college.

Oh and short men? Eeeek, they better really bring something great. I feel bad for men of small stature.

+1 I kind of feel that the posters talking about how nerds are so hot right now are being hypocrites or in some kind of fairy land. Women always prefer tall handsome athletic men. Bonus points if they are rich aka fifty shades of grey (if he wasn't so rich Mr Gray just be a twisted perv). Vs, Mark Zuckerberg may be the richest man in the world but I still don't get the hots for nerdy him.

25yr old here. I also hate to say it but if you are lacking in the physical department, but have a big ego and are a bit of a dick, the girls to go flocking to those guys as well. Assholes never do it for me, but I certainly saw girls in HS and college throw themselves at these types. Sadly they still do it now. These are educated accomplished women fawning over douchebags. I have no doubt said douchebags will marry up.

[Anonymous]

I have girlfriends that immediately nix guys on first dates just because they are not six ft tall.

[Anonymous]

NP here. What does any of this have to do with feminism again? For the 90 percent of us who are not supermodels and didn't date the football quarterback (I went to an all-girl's school), we are looking for traits in mates other than aggression and speed. Lots of women want men who are interested in being equal partners in both the breadwinning AND taking care of the home life. Frankly, the days where most families could get by on a single salary and still enjoy the trappings of middle class life are long gone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. What does any of this have to do with feminism again? For the 90 percent of us who are not supermodels and didn't date the football quarterback (I went to an all-girl's school), we are looking for traits in mates other than aggression and speed. Lots of women want men who are interested in being equal partners in both the breadwinning AND taking care of the home life. Frankly, the days where most families could get by on a single salary and still enjoy the trappings of middle class life are long gone.

It did get derailed, but there are some fundamentals that will never change. Yes, much of the population marries. We marry as best we can for our status. Come get top choice, some get left with bottom round.

[Anonymous]

My Southern gentleman partner is a feminist if only because he saw how hard it was for his mom to work for a fraction of men's' wages for the same work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

Seriously, you are OUT OF IT. Most of the kids at our suburban VA high school went in groups to prom, or with friends. My daughter's boyfriend goes to another school and she went to her prom with a bunch of girlfriends. Socializing is different these days, Gramps.

I'm definitely way younger than you, I graduated HS 7 years ago (Sidwell if you must) and I'm sorry to say, but you are off. The strongest most athletic guys get the most desirable (read pretty) girls. the president of the chess club is not getting even a second glance. Same thing in college.

Oh and short men? Eeeek, they better really bring something great. I feel bad for men of small stature.

+1 I kind of feel that the posters talking about how nerds are so hot right now are being hypocrites or in some kind of fairy land. Women always prefer tall handsome athletic men. Bonus points if they are rich aka fifty shades of grey (if he wasn't so rich Mr Gray just be a twisted perv). Vs, Mark Zuckerberg may be the richest man in the world but I still don't get the hots for nerdy him.

25yr old here. I also hate to say it but if you are lacking in the physical department, but have a big ego and are a bit of a dick, the girls to go flocking to those guys as well. Assholes never do it for me, but I certainly saw girls in HS and college throw themselves at these types. Sadly they still do it now. These are educated accomplished women fawning over douchebags. I have no doubt said douchebags will marry up.

Luckily, in this area at least, 25 year olds aren't dating ISO a life partner. Date the big dick at 25 if big dick makes you happy. Marry the big heart at 35 or older if that makes you happy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

Seriously, you are OUT OF IT. Most of the kids at our suburban VA high school went in groups to prom, or with friends. My daughter's boyfriend goes to another school and she went to her prom with a bunch of girlfriends. Socializing is different these days, Gramps.

I'm definitely way younger than you, I graduated HS 7 years ago (Sidwell if you must) and I'm sorry to say, but you are off. The strongest most athletic guys get the most desirable (read pretty) girls. the president of the chess club is not getting even a second glance. Same thing in college.

Oh and short men? Eeeek, they better really bring something great. I feel bad for men of small stature.

+1 I kind of feel that the posters talking about how nerds are so hot right now are being hypocrites or in some kind of fairy land. Women always prefer tall handsome athletic men. Bonus points if they are rich aka fifty shades of grey (if he wasn't so rich Mr Gray just be a twisted perv). Vs, Mark Zuckerberg may be the richest man in the world but I still don't get the hots for nerdy him.

25yr old here. I also hate to say it but if you are lacking in the physical department, but have a big ego and are a bit of a dick, the girls to go flocking to those guys as well. Assholes never do it for me, but I certainly saw girls in HS and college throw themselves at these types. Sadly they still do it now. These are educated accomplished women fawning over douchebags. I have no doubt said douchebags will marry up.

Luckily, in this area at least, 25 year olds aren't dating ISO a life partner. Date the big dick at 25 if big dick makes you happy. Marry the big heart at 35 or older if that makes you happy.

The reason why we're talking about this is that the 25 year old big hearts realize that the 25 year old women want the big dicks and realize they are losing out and then settling for the scraps when they're 35 when the girls had all their fun and now have to be with them. So for all the exhorting men and boys to become big hearts, the biological kingdom really shows there is no incentive for them to do so. And for anyone who protests this think back when you were young and what type of guys you were chasing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, please. Have you been paying attention? Nerds are what's hot now, both male and female. Thank God we've moved beyond "strong, fast, loud and aggressive" and "pretty" as our metrics for desirable mates.

Well, good. I'm happy to be wrong about that. Glad the spelling bee champs are going to the prom while the football players console themselves about how school dances are stupid anyway.

Seriously, you are OUT OF IT. Most of the kids at our suburban VA high school went in groups to prom, or with friends. My daughter's boyfriend goes to another school and she went to her prom with a bunch of girlfriends. Socializing is different these days, Gramps.

I'm definitely way younger than you, I graduated HS 7 years ago (Sidwell if you must) and I'm sorry to say, but you are off. The strongest most athletic guys get the most desirable (read pretty) girls. the president of the chess club is not getting even a second glance. Same thing in college.

Oh and short men? Eeeek, they better really bring something great. I feel bad for men of small stature.

+1 I kind of feel that the posters talking about how nerds are so hot right now are being hypocrites or in some kind of fairy land. Women always prefer tall handsome athletic men. Bonus points if they are rich aka fifty shades of grey (if he wasn't so rich Mr Gray just be a twisted perv). Vs, Mark Zuckerberg may be the richest man in the world but I still don't get the hots for nerdy him.

25yr old here. I also hate to say it but if you are lacking in the physical department, but have a big ego and are a bit of a dick, the girls to go flocking to those guys as well. Assholes never do it for me, but I certainly saw girls in HS and college throw themselves at these types. Sadly they still do it now. These are educated accomplished women fawning over douchebags. I have no doubt said douchebags will marry up.

Luckily, in this area at least, 25 year olds aren't dating ISO a life partner. Date the big dick at 25 if big dick makes you happy. Marry the big heart at 35 or older if that makes you happy.

The reason why we're talking about this is that the 25 year old big hearts realize that the 25 year old women want the big dicks and realize they are losing out and then settling for the scraps when they're 35 when the girls had all their fun and now have to be with them. So for all the exhorting men and boys to become big hearts, the biological kingdom really shows there is no incentive for them to do so. And for anyone who protests this think back when you were young and what type of guys you were chasing.

Cry me a river. Not everyone has the same taste. Sorry you are trying to date out of your league and having no luck. You're acting like a dick right now, and I bet none of the purported 25 year old women in this thread are eager to fuck you.