Redshirt mom vs. Tiger mom -- seeking a competitive advantage?

[Anonymous]

I'm shocked that "red-shirting" summer boys causes so much commotion.

While all of my children are under six, parents I know with older boys - and May to August bdays - have had some real issues. And in 2 occasions have had their child try another year in their grade level at school recommendation.

Holding back in 5th grade? Or delaying a start date? Which causes more trauma?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP continuation

I hope it turns out to be 5 year olds and 25% of the class but that is not what I have seen, heard or experienced at other schools. GDS could be the exception.

Yes, these children are "on time," turning entering PK at age 4 and entering K at age 5, turning 5 and 6 respectively during the summer. GDS may be the exception, I don't know.

I believe that parents are speculating that their children didn't get accepted into these competitive private schools because of their summer birthdays, when in fact admissions to these schools is largely a game of numbers. Summer, non-red-shirted boys do get accepted into these schools. But the simple fact of the matter is that your child may not have gotten in even with a fall birthday. When you have 200 children applying for 20 spots, and half of those are reserved for sibs/alum/faculty/staff, the numbers work against you.

I'm not speculating, I asked admissions people about summer birthday kids and they were pretty honest that most needed an extra year or that they had one or two kids. As if these kids are the exception and not the norm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was at an open house for a "top 3" private and the AD specifically stated that those born in June, July or August will probably not be accepted into their pre k prgm - thus forcing a red shirt...

Thank you, people never believe that AD state this. My guess is that they specifically meant boys and that girls are often accepted but they could mean both. It seems that this is mainly a boy issue.

Prior to this summer birthday redshirting trend, were late summer boys failing out of high schools? Were boys in general not as academically advanced as girls in HS? Was the SAT rates for boys that much lower?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child is not at a Big 3 and is not a straight A student. He does like to continue his academic work in the summers and after school. We would never discourage this because of your myopic opinions. Your child sounds like a genius from your description...straight A, Big 3, non-academic work after school and in the summers. Why does your child even bother with school and education?

PP here. Maybe my perspective is different because my DC is in upper school but non academic work after school and in the summers is the norm, not the exception. of course all these kids have tons of homework and my DC does her homework. But she also reads, goes on facebook, hangs out with her friends. You don't want that for your child? Seriously? She's bright, but I wouldn't say she's a super genius. The key is that she loves learning and has found academic passions and I truly believe that happened because it came from within and her parents didn't schlep her to kumon and make her do worksheets.

And because she's in upper school I can see the difference between the children of the tiger moms and the ones who succeed without the "enrichment". The kids whose parents have pushed and pushed, the tiger moms, fall into two categories. Some feel like failures because even though they are good students they aren't the very best students. Others are very successful and speak openly about how hard their parents push them -- they are unhappy and other kids feel sorry for them. Then there are the kids who do well on their own, without being pushed. They are well respected by the other kids, who see it as natural talent and not artificially constructed by their parents. And finally there are all the other kids, who do fine and aren't pushed and may not be the stars of their class. They are the ones who will ultimately be the most successful. I know this because I went to a Big 3 school and I saw this happen over and over again. The most successful adults were not the kids at the top of the class.

So just know that the way you "mentor" your child will be known by the other kids in their class as well as their teachers. This is not always a good thing.

[Anonymous]

But, here's what I found to be a head scratcher... my DS is a late June birthday. He was NOT red-shirted and he is very smart, sailed thru school, top of his class at the K-8, and doing fabulous at his private, all boys HS. I can't imagine any benefit that holding him back would achieve.

My DD, on the other hand, is a March birthday so red-shirting was never even on the table. However, every year since 1st I wish I would have held her back a year. To the point that I've even considered switching schools to hold her back. So, I think red-shirting really helps some kids but to make a blanket statement that every boy with a summer birthday needs to be held back is just wrong.

[Anonymous]

Maybe. But they're the ones who rarely see or speak to their parents when they are adults.


No evidence for this on my front. I see more George Hugely V types (not zygotes from Tigers) who rarely speak to their parents when they are adults. Just my observations.

+1 From what I have observed, the adult children who were pushed by their parents have more respect/better relationships than those whose parents let them squander their potential. They tend to blame their parents for their failures.

[Anonymous]

PP here. Maybe my perspective is different because my DC is in upper school but non academic work after school and in the summers is the norm, not the exception. of course all these kids have tons of homework and my DC does her homework. But she also reads, goes on facebook, hangs out with her friends. You don't want that for your child? Seriously? She's bright, but I wouldn't say she's a super genius. The key is that she loves learning and has found academic passions and I truly believe that happened because it came from within and her parents didn't schlep her to kumon and make her do worksheets. And because she's in upper school I can see the difference between the children of the tiger moms and the ones who succeed without the "enrichment". The kids whose parents have pushed and pushed, the tiger moms, fall into two categories. Some feel like failures because even though they are good students they aren't the very best students. Others are very successful and speak openly about how hard their parents push them -- they are unhappy and other kids feel sorry for them. Then there are the kids who do well on their own, without being pushed. They are well respected by the other kids, who see it as natural talent and not artificially constructed by their parents. And finally there are all the other kids, who do fine and aren't pushed and may not be the stars of their class. They are the ones who will ultimately be the most successful. I know this because I went to a Big 3 school and I saw this happen over and over again. The most successful adults were not the kids at the top of the class.

So just know that the way you "mentor" your child will be known by the other kids in their class as well as their teachers. This is not always a good thing.

I get it. You do not like Kumon. Where do you schlep your kids of to? Of course, your kids do not engage in prep activities (Kaplan, Princeton, or Big 3 home brewed version of prep). Get a life. Some folk do not schlep to synagogue or church (where some kids get the bulk of their enrichment and prep). No one here is castigating these kids and families. Simply do what pleases you and leave others alone to do the same. Our kids have very different goals and aspirations. Do you get it? Some people rise to the top of the class despite this not a major goal or focus...but I see you can't relate. Top of classes from what I see is a low bar. Forty percent of the County is on the middle school and high school honor rolls? You are making a big deal out of nothing. Go back to doing what pleases you and your children and take you "nosey" nose out of the affairs of other children. You come of jealous and envious of others who mentor their kids in a different manner.

Global trash dumps are littered with self-annointed (and society-annointed) normal prodigies. The rare few earn the title with discipline and hard work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP continuation

I hope it turns out to be 5 year olds and 25% of the class but that is not what I have seen, heard or experienced at other schools. GDS could be the exception.

Yes, these children are "on time," turning entering PK at age 4 and entering K at age 5, turning 5 and 6 respectively during the summer. GDS may be the exception, I don't know.

I believe that parents are speculating that their children didn't get accepted into these competitive private schools because of their summer birthdays, when in fact admissions to these schools is largely a game of numbers. Summer, non-red-shirted boys do get accepted into these schools. But the simple fact of the matter is that your child may not have gotten in even with a fall birthday. When you have 200 children applying for 20 spots, and half of those are reserved for sibs/alum/faculty/staff, the numbers work against you.

I'm not speculating, I asked admissions people about summer birthday kids and they were pretty honest that most needed an extra year or that they had one or two kids. As if these kids are the exception and not the norm.

Again, which schools? So far, we know that GDS does have summer non-red-shirted boys enrolled in PK/K. Is anyone actually willing to name schools, even on this anonymous thread, that explicitly state that they recommend holding back summer birthdays?

[Anonymous]

+1 From what I have observed, the adult children who were pushed by their parents have more respect/better relationships than those whose parents let them squander their potential. They tend to blame their parents for their failures.

From what I have observed in my family and others. Parents who have mentored their young kids in every sense of the word and instilled concepts of discipline, hard work and accountability early on have kids with better respect for one another and better respect for their elders. It is not a surprise, in the least, this behaviour is observed in the children of immigrants and Tiger parents. These kids have not had the chance of getting "spoiled" by American culture. Jeremy Lin is very typical of this phenomenon that is also witnessed in the children of aspiring non Asiatic immigrants in this country. This has nothing to do with Kumon or worksheets but for many this is one form of enrichment some can afford. Private tutors, home nannies, soirees in ski resorts and weekends in the world's prominent art galleries and museums are not within reach or affordable for some of these children and families.

[Anonymous]

These clearly are personal decisions, and that is fine. But I agree with much of the PP. I personally have more respect for Tiger Moms than for parents who regularly take their kids to overpriced resorts out West or elsewhere. And the birthday parties at the Ritz salon. Give me a break! Aspen is absolutely gorgeous, but has nothing to do with the real world. I attended 2 of the top 5 schools in the area, and very few of my classmates did what kids around here seem to do regularly now.

[Anonymous]

What's all the fuss about Tiger parents? From the other side of the globe (Africa). My parents would qualify as Tiger parents and immigrants to this country. Five kids. All educated through graduate and professional schools. All happy and extremely grateful for Tiger guidance in the American wilderness. We would be foolish, selfish and supremely ungrateful not to have appreciated our most loving parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PP here. Maybe my perspective is different because my DC is in upper school but non academic work after school and in the summers is the norm, not the exception. of course all these kids have tons of homework and my DC does her homework. But she also reads, goes on facebook, hangs out with her friends. You don't want that for your child? Seriously? She's bright, but I wouldn't say she's a super genius. The key is that she loves learning and has found academic passions and I truly believe that happened because it came from within and her parents didn't schlep her to kumon and make her do worksheets. And because she's in upper school I can see the difference between the children of the tiger moms and the ones who succeed without the "enrichment". The kids whose parents have pushed and pushed, the tiger moms, fall into two categories. Some feel like failures because even though they are good students they aren't the very best students. Others are very successful and speak openly about how hard their parents push them -- they are unhappy and other kids feel sorry for them. Then there are the kids who do well on their own, without being pushed. They are well respected by the other kids, who see it as natural talent and not artificially constructed by their parents. And finally there are all the other kids, who do fine and aren't pushed and may not be the stars of their class. They are the ones who will ultimately be the most successful. I know this because I went to a Big 3 school and I saw this happen over and over again. The most successful adults were not the kids at the top of the class.

So just know that the way you "mentor" your child will be known by the other kids in their class as well as their teachers. This is not always a good thing.

I get it. You do not like Kumon. Where do you schlep your kids of to? Of course, your kids do not engage in prep activities (Kaplan, Princeton, or Big 3 home brewed version of prep). Get a life. Some folk do not schlep to synagogue or church (where some kids get the bulk of their enrichment and prep). No one here is castigating these kids and families. Simply do what pleases you and leave others alone to do the same. Our kids have very different goals and aspirations. Do you get it? Some people rise to the top of the class despite this not a major goal or focus...but I see you can't relate. Top of classes from what I see is a low bar. Forty percent of the County is on the middle school and high school honor rolls? You are making a big deal out of nothing. Go back to doing what pleases you and your children and take you "nosey" nose out of the affairs of other children. You come of jealous and envious of others who mentor their kids in a different manner.

Global trash dumps are littered with self-annointed (and society-annointed) normal prodigies. The rare few earn the title with discipline and hard work.

Yeah, I schlep my kids to synagogue and I am completely confused by why you think this is somehow analogous. Synagogue has nothing to do with "enrichment or prep" as you put it. It has to do with passing on our faith and giving them a spiritual foundation. Its not like anyone sits down and says "well, we can go to church or go to Kumon." There are plenty of kids in Kumon whose families have a religious orientation. Personally, I believe that faith can enrich your life but that has absolutely zip zero nothing to do "goals and aspirations." In fact, faith is a sphere that is removed from goals and aspirations, it serves my spirit but doesn't serve my career or whatever.

But, yeah, I do not like kumon unless it serves a specific deficit that a child is facing.

And btw, prodigies earn nothing. The whole point of prodigies is that they have innate talent. Success is earned through hard work. Prodigies can become successful but there are numerous examples -- look at the classical music world -- of prodigies who never achieve success as adults. You don't earn the title of prodigy through hard work, you earn something else.

When you accuse me of jealousy you are, again, stoking your competitiveness. I don't agree with your parenting philosophy, true, but why would that make me jealous? I could have one everything you are doing, I chose not to, and my children are thriving. I hope yours thrive as well. But I suspect that starting in their teen years you will get some push back, at which point I hope you aren't too rigid about adjusting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP continuation

I hope it turns out to be 5 year olds and 25% of the class but that is not what I have seen, heard or experienced at other schools. GDS could be the exception.

Yes, these children are "on time," turning entering PK at age 4 and entering K at age 5, turning 5 and 6 respectively during the summer. GDS may be the exception, I don't know.

I believe that parents are speculating that their children didn't get accepted into these competitive private schools because of their summer birthdays, when in fact admissions to these schools is largely a game of numbers. Summer, non-red-shirted boys do get accepted into these schools. But the simple fact of the matter is that your child may not have gotten in even with a fall birthday. When you have 200 children applying for 20 spots, and half of those are reserved for sibs/alum/faculty/staff, the numbers work against you.

I'm not speculating, I asked admissions people about summer birthday kids and they were pretty honest that most needed an extra year or that they had one or two kids. As if these kids are the exception and not the norm.

Again, which schools? So far, we know that GDS does have summer non-red-shirted boys enrolled in PK/K. Is anyone actually willing to name schools, even on this anonymous thread, that explicitly state that they recommend holding back summer birthdays?

When I mentioned after the tour that the Ks and PKs looked big, I was told by Sidwell that May onward for PK/K boy is a "really difficult" call. AD did emphasize though that they look at each child as an individual. Also told later that many parents chose to red-shirt after discussing strengths and weaknesses by Sidwell admissions folks. These stories are real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked that "red-shirting" summer boys causes so much commotion.

While all of my children are under six, parents I know with older boys - and May to August bdays - have had some real issues. And in 2 occasions have had their child try another year in their grade level at school recommendation.

Holding back in 5th grade? Or delaying a start date? Which causes more trauma?

My son started K as a four year old because he had a Nov birthday and DCPS had a Dec 31 cutoff. (DCPS has subsequently moved it up to Sept. 30.) We are thinking that he will likely repeat 5th grade- but the second 5th grade will be at a new school so it likely won't be tramatic. we could just explain that most (or maybe all!) kids his age at that new school are in the lower grade. We will defer to the school that accepts him what grade is the best fit for him based on exams, grades and interview.

I don't regret that we didn't redshirt. And yes, I am an immigrant, so I guess I do fall into the "Tiger mom" stereotype of pushing academic advancement rather than pushing schools to allow delay.

[Anonymous]

eah, I schlep my kids to synagogue and I am completely confused by why you think this is somehow analogous. Synagogue has nothing to do with "enrichment or prep" as you put it. It has to do with passing on our faith and giving them a spiritual foundation. Its not like anyone sits down and says "well, we can go to church or go to Kumon." There are plenty of kids in Kumon whose families have a religious orientation. Personally, I believe that faith can enrich your life but that has absolutely zip zero nothing to do "goals and aspirations." In fact, faith is a sphere that is removed from goals and aspirations, it serves my spirit but doesn't serve my career or whatever.

But, yeah, I do not like kumon unless it serves a specific deficit that a child is facing.

And btw, prodigies earn nothing. The whole point of prodigies is that they have innate talent. Success is earned through hard work. Prodigies can become successful but there are numerous examples -- look at the classical music world -- of prodigies who never achieve success as adults. You don't earn the title of prodigy through hard work, you earn something else.

When you accuse me of jealousy you are, again, stoking your competitiveness. I don't agree with your parenting philosophy, true, but why would that make me jealous? I could have one everything you are doing, I chose not to, and my children are thriving. I hope yours thrive as well. But I suspect that starting in their teen years you will get some push back, at which point I hope you aren't too rigid about adjusting.

I'm glad you like your synagogue where you get grounded and find a spiritual foundation. I have no problem with this. I find a spiritual foundation from my Tiger parents, our culture and I like Kumon. I have no problem with this. Do you? Do you wish to convert me to your faith, beliefs and wishes? If not, move on, and let others pursue their wishes. Their children are certainly not your children and faith means different things to different folk. You have no monopoly on faith, its definition, and the educational and vocational aspirations and wishes of others. Try not to legislate and prescribe your educational, vocational, and academic objectives and aspirations for others. We respect your personal preferences. I love my Tiger mom. I do not want a Redshirt mom, a silicone busted mom, a Starbuck mom, a globe trotting mom, a xanax popping mom, a mom with a therapist, a mom on antidepressants, a divorcee mom, a single mom or any mom like you. Why? because I love my Tiger mom and you can't have her.

There are those children for whom their parents prefer lacrosse camp and those for whom parents prefer math camp. Sorry, you don't approve. Lacrosse camps come and go and a friend of mine told me Kumon is still in business after 50 plus years! Hail to the marketplace.

Lazy bums (self-annointed prodigees or not) don't amount to a hill of beans in the big picture of life.