Did schools used to have behavioral problems like they do now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

[Anonymous]

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

This is generally true, but there are also the gentle parented kids whose refusals are a complete disruption to the other kids and staff because at school, with a system that avoids consequences, and an audience of peers, refusal can quickly turn into defiance. “I don’t want to stop playing my computer and do my work! I don’t have to listen to you!” Peers watch this, and join in, and it can become a nightmare to handle.

[Anonymous]

No, it happened when schools gave up on discipline and moved to restorative justice. Essentially allowing the inmates to take over.

[Anonymous]

Mine did, but there were consequences. I graduated in 1988. My sibling, top 5% of their class who went onto a SLAC with a full scholarship, was once suspended for fighting. There was just a lot of aggression. For context my school had a very high drop out rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

This is generally true, but there are also the gentle parented kids whose refusals are a complete disruption to the other kids and staff because at school, with a system that avoids consequences, and an audience of peers, refusal can quickly turn into defiance. “I don’t want to stop playing my computer and do my work! I don’t have to listen to you!” Peers watch this, and join in, and it can become a nightmare to handle.

I think this can happen sometimes but is really not the bulk of behavioral issues in school.

People give the "gentle parenting" folks a hard time but at least in the context of this issue -- serious behavioral problems at school -- you're targeting the wrong people. These are usually people who put a ton of effort into parenting, are reading books about parenting, even taking classes, etc. Gentle parenting is insanely labor intensive. So whatever else you want to say about it, these parents are attentive and committed. And that's just not who produces kids who make school miserable. Also parents like this are more likely to actually get special needs addressed (because they are paying close attention to their kids and tend to be more anxious, and thus likely to get their kids evaluated).

The real culprit is the same as it's always been -- the neglected and abused kids with immature or absent parents. It's been this way forever. If you see a kid getting violent, having regular melt downs without any action from parents to address, etc., 9 times out of 10 you will find a kid with neglect or abuse at home.

If we concentrated half the ire that gets directed at gentle parenting instead at easily identified abuse and neglect, we'd make a lot more progress. Like instead of freaking out about some mom negotiating her kid out of the pool (annoying, okay, but not that big of a deal), let's focus on the mom who left her three kids at the pool unattended to go do drugs somewhere else. That's where the real problems are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They used to be able to suspend or expel kids and move disruptive kids to self-contained programs. Now the trend is to pretend like a teacher can handle a classroom with wildly divergent learning levels while also tackling problem behavior in the name of inclusion. I think the pendulum will swing the other way over time, but right now it's bad.

I suspect this is the answer. When I was a kid, kids got expelled from public school all the time.

I also think there just wasn't a tolerance for bad behavior the way there is now. It was not excused. If you hit a teacher or threw something, you were going to be marched to the principals office and scolded. Harshly. I remember my elementary school principal (who I remember really liking, and so did everyone, don't remember any complaints from parents) had "The Box" - it was just like an index card holder. And if you did something bad and got sent to the principal's office, your name went on a card in "The Box" and if you were in there three times, something really bad happened (I think it was a week's suspension?) And The Box carried over year to year! I never got in The Box, but my best friend did for throwing food in the cafeteria once in like 2nd grade.

Lunch detention was common. Eat your lunch by yourself in the chair outside the principal's office. There was always a kid or two who got suspended each year.

Parents would be called. And they (all of them!) would join in the scolding. If you misbehaved at school, when you got home, you were going to be sent to your room to "think about what you did" for like 30 mins. Parents NEVER sided with the kid over the principal or teacher.

People nowadays think you can just talk to kids about their behavior and "work with them to change it." But the reality is that consequences are how kids learn. Everyone's so quick to say "well, little Larlo is still learning." THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE SHOULDN'T BE A CONSEQUENCE. Consequences are how you learn. These days, I can't imagine that one instance of throwing food in the cafeteria would mean a trip to the principal's office and a phone call home, and that three instances over five years (!!!) would mean a suspension. Every parent on this board would freak out. "How will little Larlo get into college with a suspension!?" So, kids know, they can probably hit the teacher a few times, destroy a classroom, and they won't actually be punished. So... why bother learning self control?

There was a post just last week about "well, maybe it's not fair for my kid to miss field day for roughhousing in the hallway." It's easy to blame this on the "truly disruptive" kids - but your UMC "good" kid getting to skate by on minor infractions is DIRECTLY related to this problem.

School consequences were eliminated due to DEI.

[Anonymous]

I think this can happen sometimes but is really not the bulk of behavioral issues in school.

Sure, it’s not the bulk of the major issues, but it contributes to the general disruption when Larla won’t’ leave her station/library/art whatever and you have to walkie down for someone to come sit with her because you’ve got 26 other kids to move on to another learning activity. And it’s absolutely contagious among students—because by and large today, Larla will get to play a game with the counselor, or sit with the facilitator and chat, or take a few laps with the AP instead of face a consequence for refusing to “get out of the pool” as expected. For me as a teacher, when I see one refuser in a class, more pop up as the year goes on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

Totally disagree. What some parents think is "gentle parenting" is really just absent parenting. The chair thrower in my eldest's class has a gentle parenting mom. I've seen her in action. She honestly doesn't say anything at all 90% of the time that he's poorly behaved. The other 10%, she quietly tells him to make better decisions/ come stand quietly next to her. All of it is completely ineffective and this kid wreaks havoc on the whole class. I'm honestly shocked at how she doesn't step in. He was injuring an animal during field day and I stepped in, and only then did she tell him to go play on the other side instead. She's checked out completely. She would absolutely just stand there and ask her kid to get out of the pool. But mostly, that mom was likely just waiting for the lifeguards to yell. Gentle parents seem to think other responsible figures in society need to tell their kids what to do instead of them.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the input of the teachers here; they are the front lines experience.

All I have is what I saw in 15 years of DCPS, and the thing that really struck me was the parents giving their kids a permission structure to misbehave. I saw so many parents charging into the school, screaming at the staff for daring to punish their child. Just a snapshot, sure. But I can extrapolate that a lot... whereas when I was a kid, getting detention at school meant being grounded at home, now getting a detention at school means getting to watch your mom make the assistant principal cry. And of course, teachers learn. If you boot the chaotic kid from your class, next thing you know you have to have mediation, or get written up because the parent threatens a lawsuit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

[Anonymous]

As someone who had in-school-suspension 2 or 3 times in fifth grade, and was NOT the only kid in that room, yes, there were behavioral problems in the '80's and '90's. Not quite as much attacking of teachers I think, but we also didn't have the internet then so if a student attacked a teacher in Nebraska, nobody filmed it and put it online and nobody in New Hampshire knew it happened.

[Anonymous]

They used to make students accountable and now they just retaliate and blame teachers. Students think that's hilarious as they get candy and free out of class pass at the office. Rewards are for chaos and punishments are for good students and teachers. Good students are punished by being jipped out of a proper education bc the delinquents get all the attention and time.

[Anonymous]

Yes! But they were handled differently. If your kid decides to throw chairs and act a fool he goes home for good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

Love this pp. I did the same exact thing with my kids. I informed my kids about where the line was, told them not to cross it, and when they did I scooped them up and we went to calm down outside/left the birthday party/left the restaurant.

I do not think that these misbehaving kids are all abused at home. That's a weird take. I also don't think that the violent ones always see violence at home either. Kids are naturally pretty violent (see toddlers! They love to push, pull, bite) and kids just have to be taught kindness.

One of my favorite mom friends gentle parents. She is forever negotiating, talking to them, rationalizing, and then often gives in. Except her kids are miserable due to never hearing the word "no." They struggle endlessly at school (just had to switch schools) and in interactions with other kids. Her son accused my son of bullying for not sharing his toy. My son (who was playing with it) had told him no and he was furious. Or when I told her kids not to walk in my flower garden they asked me "why? You can plant more flowers." Life just isn't a negotiation like they want to think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They used to make students accountable and now they just retaliate and blame teachers. Students think that's hilarious as they get candy and free out of class pass at the office. Rewards are for chaos and punishments are for good students and teachers. Good students are punished by being jipped out of a proper education bc the delinquents get all the attention and time.

I wanted to think this was a joke, but my kids have both verified that if you're bad you get Takis from the principal. And you get to come back eating them in front of the whole class.