Did schools used to have behavioral problems like they do now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

[Anonymous]

Then all the kids want takis and candy. You have to be a bad egg to get the presents ergo they are incentives to be bad because punishment is a reward. Teachers get fired for wanting to teach. This is the sad truth. Dont get me started with the grade inflation retaliation dynamic.

[Anonymous]

School discipline fell victim to President Obama’s “Dear Colleague Letter,” it is well known now:

https://manhattan.institute/article/safe-and-orderly-schools-updated-guidance-on-school-discipline

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

Your position is plausible, and I might have found it persuasive before having kids in schools, but doesn't match my experience. I have seen serious behavioral problems (chair throwing, destroying classroom objects) from children of loving attentive parents who attribute their children's difficulties to, e.g., being twice exceptional and bristle at traditional discipline methods or even consider them disability discrimination. I'm also skeptical that the rate of truly abusive or neglectful parents has increased (my suspicion is that it has decreased due to the decline in unplanned/teen pregnancy), whereas the rate of misguided gentle parenting has increased as my peers turn to Instagram for parenting guidance.

[Anonymous]

I'm Gen-X and recall frequent fights during school and after school. No fights before school though lol. It wasn't unusual for someone to get punched in the face just walking down the hallway or standing by their locker. This was also a school in a rural area and was much worse than the high school I previously attended in the burbs.

My kid graduated last year from a slightly above average high school in NOVA and the level of shenanigans seems really low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

You are getting very hung up on the gentle parenting term. Teachers are explaining here that kids who do not respect adults and need to be negotiated with are, in fact, disruptive and behavior issues in their classrooms. Are they chair throwers? No, but kids who refuse to follow directions and need to be negotiated with can be incredibly disruptive to classroom dynamics, not to mention require additional personnel to manage. If Larla won’t leave one location for another, an adult needs to stay with her while the rest of the class goes about their day, and, as a million PPs have said, that kind of response then incentivizes the behavior to continue.

[Anonymous]

No. In the past, our society had a shared set of beliefs and values (the "social imaginary" as Charles Taylor would call it) that were rooted in Christianity. These values were adhered to even by non-Christians. Recently, it has become de rigueur to rebel against these old strictures, even elevate and amplify those who do, for the sake of "authenticity". As Nietzsche's madman warned, killing God means killing those beliefs that were part of the religious framework of society. We are reaping the results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No. In the past, our society had a shared set of beliefs and values (the "social imaginary" as Charles Taylor would call it) that were rooted in Christianity. These values were adhered to even by non-Christians. Recently, it has become de rigueur to rebel against these old strictures, even elevate and amplify those who do, for the sake of "authenticity". As Nietzsche's madman warned, killing God means killing those beliefs that were part of the religious framework of society. We are reaping the results.

Oh hi, Christian nationalist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

You are getting very hung up on the gentle parenting term. Teachers are explaining here that kids who do not respect adults and need to be negotiated with are, in fact, disruptive and behavior issues in their classrooms. Are they chair throwers? No, but kids who refuse to follow directions and need to be negotiated with can be incredibly disruptive to classroom dynamics, not to mention require additional personnel to manage. If Larla won’t leave one location for another, an adult needs to stay with her while the rest of the class goes about their day, and, as a million PPs have said, that kind of response then incentivizes the behavior to continue.

DP my kid is like this at home. Not at school (unless they just aren't telling us). DC is autistic.

No amount of consequences can change the fact that DC is autistic. We have tried the authoritative parenting approach with DC and it doesn't work. What does work is explaining when and why we have to move on from something. So I guess that is gentle parenting? Certainly the fact that DC is by all accounts well behaved at school is not the result of us focusing on setting boundaries. That likely has more to do with DC's personality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. In the past, our society had a shared set of beliefs and values (the "social imaginary" as Charles Taylor would call it) that were rooted in Christianity. These values were adhered to even by non-Christians. Recently, it has become de rigueur to rebel against these old strictures, even elevate and amplify those who do, for the sake of "authenticity". As Nietzsche's madman warned, killing God means killing those beliefs that were part of the religious framework of society. We are reaping the results.

Oh hi, Christian nationalist

Hi, nihilist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

You are getting very hung up on the gentle parenting term. Teachers are explaining here that kids who do not respect adults and need to be negotiated with are, in fact, disruptive and behavior issues in their classrooms. Are they chair throwers? No, but kids who refuse to follow directions and need to be negotiated with can be incredibly disruptive to classroom dynamics, not to mention require additional personnel to manage. If Larla won’t leave one location for another, an adult needs to stay with her while the rest of the class goes about their day, and, as a million PPs have said, that kind of response then incentivizes the behavior to continue.

No one complaining about gentle parenting on here has identified themselves as a teacher. The teachers have complained about mainstreaming, lack of effective discipline options in school (meaning schools can no longer remove kids from classrooms, suspend, or expel, so teachers hands are tied when dealing with difficult kids) and parents who refuse to follow through at home when a child has been violent or disruptive at school (with some form of discipline). None of that has anything to do with gentle parenting.

The person who brought up gentle parenting used the example of her 16 year old daughter seeing a parent at a pool negotiating with a child (who may not even have been school age, we don't know, it could have been a 3 yr old) to get them out of the pool. This is an idiotic example for "why behavior in schools is so bad."

I live near a park where I regularly see parents and guardians screaming obscenities at their kids, keeping young kids out past 10pm, smoking and drinking in front of their kids, etc. I see those kids go from sweet toddlers to belligerent, angry, violent tweens. Which is why my kid does NOT go to the neighborhood school and why we are looking to move. It's really not that hard to figure out. Some mom gentle parenting might be personally annoying or ineffective in the moment but that's just not the problem in this particular thread. Go start a thread about moms who can't effectively get their kids out of the pool for adult swim if it's that important to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They used to be able to suspend or expel kids and move disruptive kids to self-contained programs. Now the trend is to pretend like a teacher can handle a classroom with wildly divergent learning levels while also tackling problem behavior in the name of inclusion. I think the pendulum will swing the other way over time, but right now it's bad.

I suspect this is the answer. When I was a kid, kids got expelled from public school all the time.

I also think there just wasn't a tolerance for bad behavior the way there is now. It was not excused. If you hit a teacher or threw something, you were going to be marched to the principals office and scolded. Harshly. I remember my elementary school principal (who I remember really liking, and so did everyone, don't remember any complaints from parents) had "The Box" - it was just like an index card holder. And if you did something bad and got sent to the principal's office, your name went on a card in "The Box" and if you were in there three times, something really bad happened (I think it was a week's suspension?) And The Box carried over year to year! I never got in The Box, but my best friend did for throwing food in the cafeteria once in like 2nd grade.

Lunch detention was common. Eat your lunch by yourself in the chair outside the principal's office. There was always a kid or two who got suspended each year.

Parents would be called. And they (all of them!) would join in the scolding. If you misbehaved at school, when you got home, you were going to be sent to your room to "think about what you did" for like 30 mins. Parents NEVER sided with the kid over the principal or teacher.

People nowadays think you can just talk to kids about their behavior and "work with them to change it." But the reality is that consequences are how kids learn. Everyone's so quick to say "well, little Larlo is still learning." THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE SHOULDN'T BE A CONSEQUENCE. Consequences are how you learn. These days, I can't imagine that one instance of throwing food in the cafeteria would mean a trip to the principal's office and a phone call home, and that three instances over five years (!!!) would mean a suspension. Every parent on this board would freak out. "How will little Larlo get into college with a suspension!?" So, kids know, they can probably hit the teacher a few times, destroy a classroom, and they won't actually be punished. So... why bother learning self control?

There was a post just last week about "well, maybe it's not fair for my kid to miss field day for roughhousing in the hallway." It's easy to blame this on the "truly disruptive" kids - but your UMC "good" kid getting to skate by on minor infractions is DIRECTLY related to this problem.

I agree that more parents used to be on board with punishing bad behavior. I had a neighbor who's kid kept getting suspended. She was annoyed bc she felt it was a punishment for HER. I overheard her tell my mom that she called up and asked if she could send him to school and they could make him do chores! They couldn't of course, but at least she acknowledged the issue. He eventually ended up in private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

You are getting very hung up on the gentle parenting term. Teachers are explaining here that kids who do not respect adults and need to be negotiated with are, in fact, disruptive and behavior issues in their classrooms. Are they chair throwers? No, but kids who refuse to follow directions and need to be negotiated with can be incredibly disruptive to classroom dynamics, not to mention require additional personnel to manage. If Larla won’t leave one location for another, an adult needs to stay with her while the rest of the class goes about their day, and, as a million PPs have said, that kind of response then incentivizes the behavior to continue.

DP my kid is like this at home. Not at school (unless they just aren't telling us). DC is autistic.

No amount of consequences can change the fact that DC is autistic. We have tried the authoritative parenting approach with DC and it doesn't work. What does work is explaining when and why we have to move on from something. So I guess that is gentle parenting? Certainly the fact that DC is by all accounts well behaved at school is not the result of us focusing on setting boundaries. That likely has more to do with DC's personality.

There’s a huge difference between a child with autism and a neurotypical child who knows refusing to follow directions means they don’t have to follow directions. I am talking about the latter. I teach a specialized area and every year I encounter multiple students who have no identified disabilities (and aren’t being considered for child study, because I follow up with teachers) who refuse to follow directions like “complete this activity” or “close your Chromebook because we are moving to something else”—why? Because it works at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

I’m confused at how you know without a doubt that your opinion is 100% correct. Are you an educator? A doctor? Psychologist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

You are getting very hung up on the gentle parenting term. Teachers are explaining here that kids who do not respect adults and need to be negotiated with are, in fact, disruptive and behavior issues in their classrooms. Are they chair throwers? No, but kids who refuse to follow directions and need to be negotiated with can be incredibly disruptive to classroom dynamics, not to mention require additional personnel to manage. If Larla won’t leave one location for another, an adult needs to stay with her while the rest of the class goes about their day, and, as a million PPs have said, that kind of response then incentivizes the behavior to continue.

DP my kid is like this at home. Not at school (unless they just aren't telling us). DC is autistic.

No amount of consequences can change the fact that DC is autistic. We have tried the authoritative parenting approach with DC and it doesn't work. What does work is explaining when and why we have to move on from something. So I guess that is gentle parenting? Certainly the fact that DC is by all accounts well behaved at school is not the result of us focusing on setting boundaries. That likely has more to do with DC's personality.

There’s a huge difference between a child with autism and a neurotypical child who knows refusing to follow directions means they don’t have to follow directions. I am talking about the latter. I teach a specialized area and every year I encounter multiple students who have no identified disabilities (and aren’t being considered for child study, because I follow up with teachers) who refuse to follow directions like “complete this activity” or “close your Chromebook because we are moving to something else”—why? Because it works at home.

Lots of neurodivergence issues go undiagnosed, or there may be a diagnosis but no IEP in place in which case you may have no idea. My kid has slow processing speed and is on the autism spectrum but because she tests well above grade level and has no social challenges, no IEP.

Also the examples you give are both indicative of neurodivergence. A kid who struggles with a direction like "complete the activity" may simply be having trouble completing the activity! They may not understand the instructions or be struggling with a skill. A skilled teacher will recognize this and alter instructions to support that kid. For instance if the class needs to wrap up a worksheet activity so they can transition to a specials class, the teacher can say "just finish whatever question you are currently on, it's okay if you are not done. then put these in your folder and you can return to it later if there is time." And then like magic the kid who was fighting you will follow instructions because you've given them instructions they are actually able to follow.

Regarding the Chromebook, this is a problem schools created for themselves via overuse of screens. Everyone who works with young kids knows that many kids really struggle with transitions off screens, especially individual devices. The screen is designed to capture their attention and for kids with ADHD or other ND, the screen is often the only time during the day when their mind gets quiet or feels relaxed. Putting kids on Chromebooks for 15 or 30 minute activities and then asking them to transition rapidly to other activities is just asking for trouble and most parents of ND would simply never make that mistake. You might assume my kid who struggles with getting off the Chromebook is just allowed to watch screens indefinitely at home but you'd be wrong. In reality she gets almost no screen time at all at home and any screen time happens AFTER other necessary activities to avoid this specific problem. It's not my fault you haven't figured this out yet.