Did schools used to have behavioral problems like they do now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

You are getting very hung up on the gentle parenting term. Teachers are explaining here that kids who do not respect adults and need to be negotiated with are, in fact, disruptive and behavior issues in their classrooms. Are they chair throwers? No, but kids who refuse to follow directions and need to be negotiated with can be incredibly disruptive to classroom dynamics, not to mention require additional personnel to manage. If Larla won’t leave one location for another, an adult needs to stay with her while the rest of the class goes about their day, and, as a million PPs have said, that kind of response then incentivizes the behavior to continue.

DP my kid is like this at home. Not at school (unless they just aren't telling us). DC is autistic.

No amount of consequences can change the fact that DC is autistic. We have tried the authoritative parenting approach with DC and it doesn't work. What does work is explaining when and why we have to move on from something. So I guess that is gentle parenting? Certainly the fact that DC is by all accounts well behaved at school is not the result of us focusing on setting boundaries. That likely has more to do with DC's personality.

There’s a huge difference between a child with autism and a neurotypical child who knows refusing to follow directions means they don’t have to follow directions. I am talking about the latter. I teach a specialized area and every year I encounter multiple students who have no identified disabilities (and aren’t being considered for child study, because I follow up with teachers) who refuse to follow directions like “complete this activity” or “close your Chromebook because we are moving to something else”—why? Because it works at home.

I am the PP with the autistic child. My child does not have an IEP. If we hadn't gotten DC diagnosed privately, the school would definitely not have tested or diagnosed them. DC is definitely autistic based on the current definition of the word and is doing well in part because we do therapy outside of school. Obviously, there are many kids that could benefit from therapy but won't get identified through the school system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

I’m confused at how you know without a doubt that your opinion is 100% correct. Are you an educator? A doctor? Psychologist?

It's interesting how when faced with arguments you disagree with, you don't engage with the argument but put up straw men ("you are essentially saying" when that's not what I said at all) or attack my credentials when you haven't provided your own. What qualifies you to blame all school-based behavioral problems on "gentle parenting"?

Again, the person who introduced gentle parenting as a scapegoat in this conversation provided a single anecdote to prove it -- her 16 yr old DD witnessed a mom negoatiating with her child to get out of the pool and came home and complained about it. This is the ONLY evidence provided that behavioral issues in school are the fault of gentle parenting concepts. You don't need special qualifications to question that conclusion. It's ridiculous on its face.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

You are getting very hung up on the gentle parenting term. Teachers are explaining here that kids who do not respect adults and need to be negotiated with are, in fact, disruptive and behavior issues in their classrooms. Are they chair throwers? No, but kids who refuse to follow directions and need to be negotiated with can be incredibly disruptive to classroom dynamics, not to mention require additional personnel to manage. If Larla won’t leave one location for another, an adult needs to stay with her while the rest of the class goes about their day, and, as a million PPs have said, that kind of response then incentivizes the behavior to continue.

DP my kid is like this at home. Not at school (unless they just aren't telling us). DC is autistic.

No amount of consequences can change the fact that DC is autistic. We have tried the authoritative parenting approach with DC and it doesn't work. What does work is explaining when and why we have to move on from something. So I guess that is gentle parenting? Certainly the fact that DC is by all accounts well behaved at school is not the result of us focusing on setting boundaries. That likely has more to do with DC's personality.

There’s a huge difference between a child with autism and a neurotypical child who knows refusing to follow directions means they don’t have to follow directions. I am talking about the latter. I teach a specialized area and every year I encounter multiple students who have no identified disabilities (and aren’t being considered for child study, because I follow up with teachers) who refuse to follow directions like “complete this activity” or “close your Chromebook because we are moving to something else”—why? Because it works at home.

Lots of neurodivergence issues go undiagnosed, or there may be a diagnosis but no IEP in place in which case you may have no idea. My kid has slow processing speed and is on the autism spectrum but because she tests well above grade level and has no social challenges, no IEP.

Also the examples you give are both indicative of neurodivergence. A kid who struggles with a direction like "complete the activity" may simply be having trouble completing the activity! They may not understand the instructions or be struggling with a skill. A skilled teacher will recognize this and alter instructions to support that kid. For instance if the class needs to wrap up a worksheet activity so they can transition to a specials class, the teacher can say "just finish whatever question you are currently on, it's okay if you are not done. then put these in your folder and you can return to it later if there is time." And then like magic the kid who was fighting you will follow instructions because you've given them instructions they are actually able to follow.

Regarding the Chromebook, this is a problem schools created for themselves via overuse of screens. Everyone who works with young kids knows that many kids really struggle with transitions off screens, especially individual devices. The screen is designed to capture their attention and for kids with ADHD or other ND, the screen is often the only time during the day when their mind gets quiet or feels relaxed. Putting kids on Chromebooks for 15 or 30 minute activities and then asking them to transition rapidly to other activities is just asking for trouble and most parents of ND would simply never make that mistake. You might assume my kid who struggles with getting off the Chromebook is just allowed to watch screens indefinitely at home but you'd be wrong. In reality she gets almost no screen time at all at home and any screen time happens AFTER other necessary activities to avoid this specific problem. It's not my fault you haven't figured this out yet.

Amen

After seeing how my child reacts to an iPad being taken away, the iPad can no longer be used outside of vacations.

Screens are designed to be addictive and many kids especially if they are nd really struggle with transitioning away from them. I am always shaking my head when teachers on these boards:
- assume that screen addiction is parents' fault and only happens because parents give kids too much screen time;
- Complain about terrible behaviors in schools but don't make the connection between the behaviors and screens

[Anonymous]

They used to punish students especially when they are dangerous in class. Now they punish the teachers, the kids think it's funny, they get candy as a reward, they push it to the limit, there actually is not any standard limits. Something eventually goes terribly wrong, teachers are fired, admin covers up and get promoted for being good butt sniffin yes men. Rinse and repeat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

I’m confused at how you know without a doubt that your opinion is 100% correct. Are you an educator? A doctor? Psychologist?

It's interesting how when faced with arguments you disagree with, you don't engage with the argument but put up straw men ("you are essentially saying" when that's not what I said at all) or attack my credentials when you haven't provided your own. What qualifies you to blame all school-based behavioral problems on "gentle parenting"?

Again, the person who introduced gentle parenting as a scapegoat in this conversation provided a single anecdote to prove it -- her 16 yr old DD witnessed a mom negoatiating with her child to get out of the pool and came home and complained about it. This is the ONLY evidence provided that behavioral issues in school are the fault of gentle parenting concepts. You don't need special qualifications to question that conclusion. It's ridiculous on its face.

I’m a teacher and have been for 20 years. When I first started you could hear parents actually holding their children accountable for their behaviors in school. During meetings where the child was in attendance, before and after school, at school events. Now—parents find anything else to blame except their child or themselves for failing to teach their child how to behave properly. You can see it in restaurants and in public spaces. My proof is that I see evidence of it every day. Students talking back, students pushing boundaries on routines that were laid down day 1 and consistently upheld for the safety and education of the whole classroom.

[Anonymous]

25 year teacher PP here. There have always been neglectful parents and overly permissive parents, and that certainly doesn’t help. I still think that the primary factor is the top-down insistence that extreme behaviors must be tolerated in the classroom, without removal, real consequences, or sufficient support. Some of that is certainly due to parent demands, but the school system largely determines if principals must give in to those demands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

I’m confused at how you know without a doubt that your opinion is 100% correct. Are you an educator? A doctor? Psychologist?

It's interesting how when faced with arguments you disagree with, you don't engage with the argument but put up straw men ("you are essentially saying" when that's not what I said at all) or attack my credentials when you haven't provided your own. What qualifies you to blame all school-based behavioral problems on "gentle parenting"?

Again, the person who introduced gentle parenting as a scapegoat in this conversation provided a single anecdote to prove it -- her 16 yr old DD witnessed a mom negoatiating with her child to get out of the pool and came home and complained about it. This is the ONLY evidence provided that behavioral issues in school are the fault of gentle parenting concepts. You don't need special qualifications to question that conclusion. It's ridiculous on its face.

I’m a teacher and have been for 20 years. When I first started you could hear parents actually holding their children accountable for their behaviors in school. During meetings where the child was in attendance, before and after school, at school events. Now—parents find anything else to blame except their child or themselves for failing to teach their child how to behave properly. You can see it in restaurants and in public spaces. My proof is that I see evidence of it every day. Students talking back, students pushing boundaries on routines that were laid down day 1 and consistently upheld for the safety and education of the whole classroom.

As a parent, I see a lot of parents setting boundaries. When my child misbehaves in public, I do try to hold her accountable, and I feel terrible as a parent when it happens.

I have heard from teacher friends that when they speak to parents about behavior issues, parents don't believe them, which is appalling. I think there is a lot of mistrust between parents and teachers. My child doesn't have behavior issues at school right now (definitely does with us), but it is so hard to get clear information from the teachers about her academics. I ask direct questions and get nonanswers. I actually love the teachers and they have been amazing with my kid, but with me I just don't feel there is good communication. And my sense is this isn't because the teachers are trying to be evasive, but I think there are pressures on them from above that I don't see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

Well said. Too many people are confusing permissive with gentle. Gentle parenting doesn't mean there are no boundaries or consequences. Not everything is negotiable. If you're allowing your kid to negotiate everything and there are no consequences for behavior, you're not being a parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Short answer: yes of course

Absolutely not... there were actual consequences before. It is the "Broken Windows" theory applied to education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:25 year teacher PP here. There have always been neglectful parents and overly permissive parents, and that certainly doesn’t help. I still think that the primary factor is the top-down insistence that extreme behaviors must be tolerated in the classroom, without removal, real consequences, or sufficient support. Some of that is certainly due to parent demands, but the school system largely determines if principals must give in to those demands.

What I don't understand is why teachers unions haven't been pushing back on this more. In Montgomery County, for example, they have an "Apple ballot" with endorsed candidates for school board, but the Board members endorsed by the union don't tend to rock the boat to actually advocate for betting working conditions for teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

I was a teacher for many years and you are wrong about this. Mom doesn't see the disruption at home because she never tells her kid no and allows for a negotiation over everything. When that kid is in a classroom and there are things not up for negotiation, he throws a fit. He may not be violent but he is absolutely disruptive. You are foolish for thinking otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Teachers should not fear the union like they do but teachers know that if there is violence in the classroom and it is reported early on the union seems like they work with admin to end you career. I have no idea why they ignore the violence and crime. But not only do they ignore it they create a narrative that "it must be the teachers fault because if the teacher was satisfactory than all the gangbangers would love to do chemistry". It's absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:25 year teacher PP here. There have always been neglectful parents and overly permissive parents, and that certainly doesn’t help. I still think that the primary factor is the top-down insistence that extreme behaviors must be tolerated in the classroom, without removal, real consequences, or sufficient support. Some of that is certainly due to parent demands, but the school system largely determines if principals must give in to those demands.

What I don't understand is why teachers unions haven't been pushing back on this more. In Montgomery County, for example, they have an "Apple ballot" with endorsed candidates for school board, but the Board members endorsed by the union don't tend to rock the boat to actually advocate for betting working conditions for teachers.

It defends on what you mean by pushing back. VEA, NEA, AFT have all spoken out extensively and advocated for more behavior support, teacher safety initiatives, etc. None of them support broad mandatory suspension/removal policies.

[Anonymous]

In my district we cannot send students home unless we suspend them. We have so many students who just wander the hallway all day ignoring staff, security and admin. It’s glorified daycare and the parents just don’t care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don’t parent. DD 16 is a lifeguard and came home yesterday talking about a gentle parent trying to negotiate with her kid for several minutes to get out of the pool during break. Even teen DD could see it was a snowflake approach.

The kid whose parent has the wherewithal to be calm and patient in that situation instead of grabbing the kid by the arm and dragging him out of the pool, or screaming at him, is not the kid who is having the massive meltdown in class that gets the classroom evacuated. The gentle parented kid might have other issues if his parents don't figure out how to set limits, but the truth is that a parent willing to spend several minutes talking to their kid when they aren't doing what they've been told is demonstrating patience and emotional regulation, which is still better than screaming and yanking your kid around in terms of teaching them how to behave.

I know making fun of parents doing "gentle parenting" is a favorite pastime around these parts, but that's not what is leading to kids who throw chairs or scream at people in middle school.

A parent who negotiates like that is doing a disservice to their future adult child.

A boss isn't going to negotiate with you. A cop isn't going to negotiate with you.
A romantic partner isn't going to negotiate with you.

No one is advocating yanking a child around.

But that isn't the first time that child has ignored their parent. If there were consequences like "Johnny, it is pool break time. If you don't get out like everyone else the consequence is we will leave this pool" I suspect Johnny would have gotten out of the pool the first time.

As it is I bet that child was bribed out of the pool with a promise of snacks which isn't very different from how principals handle things nowadays.

You missed the point. It's not that gentle parenting is great and effective. It's that it doesn't produce kids who are violent and disruptive in class. And at least it does demonstrate to the kid what it looks like for an adult to get frustrated but not resort to yelling or violence. It might not be perfect parenting, but it's not the sort of parenting that leads to super disruptive kids and major behavioral problems in school.

Saying "it's the parenting" in a thread about serious behavioral issues in schools, and then describing a parent negotiating with their toddler to get out of the pool is silly. Now if you had described parents leaving their young kids at home alone regularly, spending most of their time high or drunk, or screaming at and hitting their kids, then yes, spot on. That is the kind of parenting that leads to kids with serious behavioral issues in school.

You needs some perspective.

I respectfully disagree with you. For one—you’re essentially saying that the only other option besides the negotiating gentle parent is screaming and violently ripping your kid from the situation. When my kids were young we gave them warning when we had to leave a place, set a timer and respected the timer. If they decided they didn’t want to go I wouldn’t beg, cajole, offer treats if they listened. I would count to 5 and if they weren’t complying I would scoop them up and carry them to the car. I wasn’t screening, I wasn’t violent. I sometimes had to wait or them to calm down to put them in the car seat. But the message was that parents are in charge of these decisions, the kids aren’t. And yes I read a ton of parenting books and articles and it honestly was a lot harder for me to do it this way than to constantly avoid conflict by letting my kids do what they wanted to the detriment of our family’s needs.

Gentle parenting these days isn’t just being calm, it’s letting the kids run the show. It’s asking them if they’re ready for the next thing instead of telling them. It’s rewarding negotiations with bribes (and therefore making sure it will happen again and again).

And you better believe it’s showing up in the classrooms. If your kid doesn’t ever or rarely gets told no at home, how do you think they’ll handle it hearing from their classroom teacher, specials teachers, playground monitors, administrators, bus drivers.

School behavior problems are up and it’s not due to abuse. It’s due to parents who are neglectful—neglecting to teach their kid to be part of society and expecting everyone to bend to them instead.

And it’s not working—kids are more anxious and depressed than ever.

No. I'm not "essentially" saying the only other option is screaming and hitting your kids. I'm saying that the people who scream and hit, or totally ignore their kids, produce the violent kids who are huge behavioral issues in school. They always have and they always will.

If this was a thread about kids being self sufficient in college or communications and resilience among 20 somethings, that would be different. It's not. Stop acting line gentle parenting is the source of all ills. It just undermines whatever argument you were trying to make and makes you sound nuts. You think parents who negotiate their kids out of the pool are raising the next generation of chair throwers? No. That kid gets three square meals a day (probably organic and nutritionally balanced too), plenty of sleep, has multiple loving caretakers, etc. He might have other issues because his mom doesn't just say "no you have to get out of the pool or we will leave the pool," but he's not causing big disruptions in class. He just isn't.

I was a teacher for many years and you are wrong about this. Mom doesn't see the disruption at home because she never tells her kid no and allows for a negotiation over everything. When that kid is in a classroom and there are things not up for negotiation, he throws a fit. He may not be violent but he is absolutely disruptive. You are foolish for thinking otherwise.

False. I am a parent who could easily be accused of negotiating with my kid too much and teachers go out of their way to say how sweet and respectful he is. They tell other parents when their kids are disruptive. This is a public school. I am not particularly involved in the PTA or school. They aren't trying to suck up to me. My kid is just a rule follower with everyone but me. I am his safe person.

Please stop judging parents who are struggling with their young kids. You think you know everything about them, but you don't.