Did schools used to have behavioral problems like they do now?

[Anonymous]

Were schools like this a generation ago? I don't remember anything like the behavioral problems we have now. We pulled my oldest several weeks before school ended because she was assaulted and her class was a mess. They were evacuated so many times throughout the year, at least weekly. My son's class was the same. And it was the same before too. Teachers can barely teach now because the kids can't sit still, won't be quiet, argue, and are hurting other kids. I know multiple teachers who have been assaulted and have left teaching because of it. Several parents banded together to go to the principal, but the principal was completely on the side of the abusive kids.

As a parent I'm not even sure what I should do. Is this a new thing? Are kids more violent? I do remember violent fights in high school, but we called police in to stop it (and kids got arrested, expelled, and sent to juvie). I just don't remember anything in elementary. DH and I are touring private schools, but we have 3 kids and at 20-25k, we aren't sure we can afford it for all 3. I'm really concerned about middle school because the kids are bigger and can cause more damage.

[Anonymous]

Short answer: yes of course

[Anonymous]

I think it’s new. Too many screens, social media, parents who don’t want to parent.

[Anonymous]

They used to be able to suspend or expel kids and move disruptive kids to self-contained programs. Now the trend is to pretend like a teacher can handle a classroom with wildly divergent learning levels while also tackling problem behavior in the name of inclusion. I think the pendulum will swing the other way over time, but right now it's bad.

[Anonymous]

OP here- The disruptive kids aren't special needs. We do not have separate classes, not even for gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They used to be able to suspend or expel kids and move disruptive kids to self-contained programs. Now the trend is to pretend like a teacher can handle a classroom with wildly divergent learning levels while also tackling problem behavior in the name of inclusion. I think the pendulum will swing the other way over time, but right now it's bad.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here- The disruptive kids aren't special needs. We do not have separate classes, not even for gifted.

Some of them probably are. How would you know? IEPs and 504s are private information that you would not be privy to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They used to be able to suspend or expel kids and move disruptive kids to self-contained programs. Now the trend is to pretend like a teacher can handle a classroom with wildly divergent learning levels while also tackling problem behavior in the name of inclusion. I think the pendulum will swing the other way over time, but right now it's bad.

I suspect this is the answer. When I was a kid, kids got expelled from public school all the time.

I also think there just wasn't a tolerance for bad behavior the way there is now. It was not excused. If you hit a teacher or threw something, you were going to be marched to the principals office and scolded. Harshly. I remember my elementary school principal (who I remember really liking, and so did everyone, don't remember any complaints from parents) had "The Box" - it was just like an index card holder. And if you did something bad and got sent to the principal's office, your name went on a card in "The Box" and if you were in there three times, something really bad happened (I think it was a week's suspension?) And The Box carried over year to year! I never got in The Box, but my best friend did for throwing food in the cafeteria once in like 2nd grade.

Lunch detention was common. Eat your lunch by yourself in the chair outside the principal's office. There was always a kid or two who got suspended each year.

Parents would be called. And they (all of them!) would join in the scolding. If you misbehaved at school, when you got home, you were going to be sent to your room to "think about what you did" for like 30 mins. Parents NEVER sided with the kid over the principal or teacher.

People nowadays think you can just talk to kids about their behavior and "work with them to change it." But the reality is that consequences are how kids learn. Everyone's so quick to say "well, little Larlo is still learning." THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE SHOULDN'T BE A CONSEQUENCE. Consequences are how you learn. These days, I can't imagine that one instance of throwing food in the cafeteria would mean a trip to the principal's office and a phone call home, and that three instances over five years (!!!) would mean a suspension. Every parent on this board would freak out. "How will little Larlo get into college with a suspension!?" So, kids know, they can probably hit the teacher a few times, destroy a classroom, and they won't actually be punished. So... why bother learning self control?

There was a post just last week about "well, maybe it's not fair for my kid to miss field day for roughhousing in the hallway." It's easy to blame this on the "truly disruptive" kids - but your UMC "good" kid getting to skate by on minor infractions is DIRECTLY related to this problem.

[Anonymous]

Sure, there were always kids like that, but before they’d get expelled.

Today the only metrics schools are graded on are attendance, test scores, and graduation rates. Suspensions and expulsions don’t help with those so they are gone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s new. Too many screens, social media, parents who don’t want to parent.

This exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They used to be able to suspend or expel kids and move disruptive kids to self-contained programs. Now the trend is to pretend like a teacher can handle a classroom with wildly divergent learning levels while also tackling problem behavior in the name of inclusion. I think the pendulum will swing the other way over time, but right now it's bad.

I suspect this is the answer. When I was a kid, kids got expelled from public school all the time.

I also think there just wasn't a tolerance for bad behavior the way there is now. It was not excused. If you hit a teacher or threw something, you were going to be marched to the principals office and scolded. Harshly. I remember my elementary school principal (who I remember really liking, and so did everyone, don't remember any complaints from parents) had "The Box" - it was just like an index card holder. And if you did something bad and got sent to the principal's office, your name went on a card in "The Box" and if you were in there three times, something really bad happened (I think it was a week's suspension?) And The Box carried over year to year! I never got in The Box, but my best friend did for throwing food in the cafeteria once in like 2nd grade.

Lunch detention was common. Eat your lunch by yourself in the chair outside the principal's office. There was always a kid or two who got suspended each year.

Parents would be called. And they (all of them!) would join in the scolding. If you misbehaved at school, when you got home, you were going to be sent to your room to "think about what you did" for like 30 mins. Parents NEVER sided with the kid over the principal or teacher.

People nowadays think you can just talk to kids about their behavior and "work with them to change it." But the reality is that consequences are how kids learn. Everyone's so quick to say "well, little Larlo is still learning." THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE SHOULDN'T BE A CONSEQUENCE. Consequences are how you learn. These days, I can't imagine that one instance of throwing food in the cafeteria would mean a trip to the principal's office and a phone call home, and that three instances over five years (!!!) would mean a suspension. Every parent on this board would freak out. "How will little Larlo get into college with a suspension!?" So, kids know, they can probably hit the teacher a few times, destroy a classroom, and they won't actually be punished. So... why bother learning self control?

There was a post just last week about "well, maybe it's not fair for my kid to miss field day for roughhousing in the hallway." It's easy to blame this on the "truly disruptive" kids - but your UMC "good" kid getting to skate by on minor infractions is DIRECTLY related to this problem.

PP to add - I remember a couple years ago, when my kids were 3 and 4, being at the playground with a bunch of other moms, and one of them was like "how do you guys keep your kids from fighting? Mine are always after each other?" and I said "any kid who hits another kid gets an immediate time out." The reactions from the other mothers was a level of shock I would have expected if I said I beat them. This new "time outs are abusive" thing is just another side of the same problem. Hold your kids to high standards, provide consequences, and your kids will meet them!

[Anonymous]

I went to school in the 1960s and 1970s. There were tons of behavioral issues. And the level of violence was pretty high - with weapons, such as knives and pipes. There were also pretty big riots in the schools. I'm only aware of one gun incident, but there could have been more.

The difference was how they were handled. Kids were paddled in class. Kids got detention. Kids got demerits that earned consequences if you got too many. Kids were suspended. Kids were expelled. Kids were sent to alternative programs and parental permission was not required. Parents supported this and they supported teachers. Most parents had the attitude of if the school punished you, it would be far worse at home. Few parents disrespected teachers or didn't support the actions they took.

Additionally, parents didn't tolerate much from their kids at that time either. There was an incredible amount of freedom but if were disrespectful or got in trouble, your parents were going to make sure your life sucked. Also, parents didn't give you much - if you wanted money for something, you got a job, you mowed lawns, you shoveled snow, you babysat, whatever.

I do think our schools have more kids with disabilities in mainstream programs. I have no sense of how many kids might have experienced dysregulated behavior because they had their own schools and we didn't see them. I have a sense this is a bigger problem now. I think it's good that special education is a big focus and that parents are involved. But one of the consequences of that is that parents sometimes refuse recommendations and violent kids stay in class, which is something we never saw when I was growing up. Somehow that has to change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Were schools like this a generation ago? I don't remember anything like the behavioral problems we have now. We pulled my oldest several weeks before school ended because she was assaulted and her class was a mess. They were evacuated so many times throughout the year, at least weekly. My son's class was the same. And it was the same before too. Teachers can barely teach now because the kids can't sit still, won't be quiet, argue, and are hurting other kids. I know multiple teachers who have been assaulted and have left teaching because of it. Several parents banded together to go to the principal, but the principal was completely on the side of the abusive kids.

As a parent I'm not even sure what I should do. Is this a new thing? Are kids more violent? I do remember violent fights in high school, but we called police in to stop it (and kids got arrested, expelled, and sent to juvie). I just don't remember anything in elementary. DH and I are touring private schools, but we have 3 kids and at 20-25k, we aren't sure we can afford it for all 3. I'm really concerned about middle school because the kids are bigger and can cause more damage.

Yes and no.

A generation or two ago, kids who had these behavioral issues were sent to specialized schools and warehoused, if they had an IEP, or ended up being suspended and expelled and sent to alternative schools. A good number of the kids dropped out of school when they could.

People were not happy with the high percentage of kids dropping out or graduating with out a basic degree and more emphasis was placed on helping kids learn. Not a bad thing but the push to move more kids in mainstream classes, to stop the warehousing, and address kids issues instead of punishing straight away has led to more issues in the mainstream class and fewer resources to address the problems that some kids have.

There was also the tats that showed that minorities and kids with IEPs were punished more harshly then non-minorities so policies were put in place to try and address issues without suspensions and expulsion. THe problem is that the solutions have failed and the kids stay in school and are more disruptive. And now that funding is tied to attendence and graduation rates, kids are being passed from grade to grade without learning anything. Schools bend over backwards to prevent kids from being expelled or dropping out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here- The disruptive kids aren't special needs. We do not have separate classes, not even for gifted.

Some of them probably are. How would you know? IEPs and 504s are private information that you would not be privy to.

Fine, then they need their own classroom

[Anonymous]

Kids got suspended and expelled. The problem is they it was disproportionally black kids who got harsher punishments for the same infractions.