Size & placement of regional magnet programs set to decimate non-host, non-rich schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our home school is QO in zone 5. Where could high performing kids at QO go? It seems no where to go after looking at other schools in zone 5.

My guess? QO kids will stay at QO and build a better home school now that kids won't be leaving for Poolesville.

Doubtful. They only care about football at QO.

[Anonymous]

When you add all the regional programs together, MCPS appears to be assuming that almost half of high school students will be in one of them. It's nuts

[Anonymous]

Won’t they be able to focus on dumber kids to make them smart without the distraction of worrying about smarter kids or does nobody care?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

At least as of October, this is the plan for the Humanities program (page 66): https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DMJHXR4AA9BD/$file/Boundary%20Studies%20Program%20Analysis%20Update%20251016%20PPT%20REV.pdf

LOL, my Blair SMCS kid took more ELA classes and more ELA+social science AP tests than what's shown on this list. And why IB HL English/literature for 11th and 12th grade? Two IB courses won't give you an extra IB credential, does it? Please tell me this is a quick make-believe thing. The new WJ AP Capstone curriculum makes more sense than this one.

HL IB courses are delivered over 2 years in greater depth than SL courses. Which of the IB ELA courses are offered at HL can matter, much as IB Analysis is seen as more rigorous than IB Applications in Math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

Even the bare bones curriculum outlines that MCPS presented are watered down versions of the current programs. When they find the smaller cohorts do not have enough students to participate successfully in the current curriculum, they will water it down even more.

I think you are double-counting. The "bare bones" curriculum currently outline already includes the "watering down" for smaller cohorts. The further watering down would happen if the parents at more successful kids opt out of the magnet programs, further reducing the academic preparedness and ability of the magnet cohorts.

Top students opt out of attending future magnet -> smaller or less-capable magnet cohort -> further watering down -> poor performance/non-attractive/close-out.
Top students opt in -> smaller cohort than current ones -> relatively OK quality -> more appealing to top student in the region -> draining resource for local HSs.

So both have significant side effects. Why not piloting a 3rd sub-county-wide magnet program, or splitting RMIB coverage into 2-3 regions (similar to Blair vs. Poolsville) to assure the quality and balance between centralized vs. local resource and needs? For those CTE-driven programs, I see bigger problems as there is no survey to what region wants what CTE program.

To quantify this a little bit-- the current magnets generally serve, what, the top 1-2% of students?

The current plans are based on assuming that the academic magnets will serve about 10% of students, but it also assumes that most of those students will want to attend, so that they'll serve students in roughly the top 15% of their grade (and is watered down to reflect that.)

If fewer students are interested, they may need to drop criteria even further, although I can't imagine it could functionally go any further than the top third. (For reference, roughly one-third of MCPS students take the SAT and earn SAT scores above both CCR benchmarks-- 480 reading/writing and 530 math. This varies wildly by school, though-- at many schools it is well under 30%: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED675349.pdf) This would require watering things down further.

From the MCPS chart, criterion based magnets currently serve 6% of students.

In noting 1-2%, the prior poster was, I think, describing the magnet programs seen as the most rigorous/"crown jewels" -- SMCS & RMIB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

At least as of October, this is the plan for the Humanities program (page 66): https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DMJHXR4AA9BD/$file/Boundary%20Studies%20Program%20Analysis%20Update%20251016%20PPT%20REV.pdf

LOL, my Blair SMCS kid took more ELA classes and more ELA+social science AP tests than what's shown on this list. And why IB HL English/literature for 11th and 12th grade? Two IB courses won't give you an extra IB credential, does it? Please tell me this is a quick make-believe thing. The new WJ AP Capstone curriculum makes more sense than this one.

HL IB courses are delivered over 2 years in greater depth than SL courses. Which of the IB ELA courses are offered at HL can matter, much as IB Analysis is seen as more rigorous than IB Applications in Math.

To get the IB diploma you need a certain number of HL classes. I think most take language HL as one of their HLs. Mine did language, foreign language and social studies as their HLs and then had a bunch of SLs.
Is someone saying that is what will be offered at WJ? I could not find the details in that horrifically long ppt that was linked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It appears that MCPS is planning on 60 out-of-bounds students per grade for each of the three core academic criteria-based programs (SMCS, IB, and humanities.) if they draw roughly equally from each school, that would be around 45-60 high-achieving kids per grade leaving each school, or roughly 10-15% of the most advanced kids in each grade, which is a very big number. (And if some of the kids at rich schools with strong local offerings opt out, it'll be an even larger share of the kids at the other schools who leave ). Schools who host one of those programs will "receive" 60 advanced and motivated kids from out of bounds in return, of course, but those who don't won't.

The richest schools may be able to handle losing that many motivated kids interested in advanced classes (although none of them will have to because they all get one or more of these programs anyway), but it will be a real blow to most ordinary schools which don't have huge numbers of kids taking advanced classes to begin with. Sure, they may have a few bright kids coming to whatever other programs they're hosting, at least at the start, but if those schools can't field a reasonable number of challenging classes for those kids, loving the arts (or whatever) isn't going to be enough for a kid to choose that school over one where they can take advanced classes.

The list of schools that look likely to be hit by this appear to be: Einstein, Northwood, Blake, Paint Branch, Woodward, Rockville, Magruder, Quince Orchard, Clarksburg, Damascus, and Northwest.

Basically, it seems to me that there are two pathways here: 1) almost half of MCPS schools are seriously harmed by losing a large chunk of top students to attractive academic programs at other schools; and/or 2) the regional pathways are such a disaster that no one wants to leave and so local schools are safe. (Or, frankly, it could be a combination of the two, which could be even worse for some schools-- if a program in your region is successful and draws top kids from your school, while the programs at your school are a flop and don't draw many kids in, you're even worse off.)

Am I wrong here, or is this what other folks think too?

Families will gravitate to whatever proven, high achieving choices there are at high achieving schools. Taylor is upending multiple schools with great programs. People will stampede west, if they can make it to the buses, and the eastside schools will be left picked bare. We will be more segregated than ever. Thanks Taylor you a____e

People already stampede west but now it is only the ones with money. This opens the door for people in the east which is a good thing.

I don't think you've been paying attention to the likely effects of the plan that actually leave the wealthier schools in as good or better position overall, but hollow out many of the less-well-off schools, both by encouraging attendance of some of their best at those more-rigorous-subject, wealthier-school magnets for a few who make it in and by leaving the rest with the less rigorous magnet programming (not drawing many high flyers from the wealthier areas, as they can access as good or better at their home school) and relatively mundane classes (the list of those to be required at all schools is something of a joke in this respect) accessible at their home school.

This generational plan to expand the magnets held promise, but not with the watered-down and inequitably distributed approach that MCPS appears intent on adopting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

At least as of October, this is the plan for the Humanities program (page 66): https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DMJHXR4AA9BD/$file/Boundary%20Studies%20Program%20Analysis%20Update%20251016%20PPT%20REV.pdf

LOL, my Blair SMCS kid took more ELA classes and more ELA+social science AP tests than what's shown on this list. And why IB HL English/literature for 11th and 12th grade? Two IB courses won't give you an extra IB credential, does it? Please tell me this is a quick make-believe thing. The new WJ AP Capstone curriculum makes more sense than this one.

HL IB courses are delivered over 2 years in greater depth than SL courses. Which of the IB ELA courses are offered at HL can matter, much as IB Analysis is seen as more rigorous than IB Applications in Math.

So do those randomly popped two HL IB courses in junior and senior years leading to some meaningful rigorous humanity course track? Would teaching those courses require some IB certificate for teachers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Your Einstein grads had it different. The school admin has progressively decimated advanced classwork in recent years. I could be off by a year, but I think the first class for which there were no pre-IB courses are Seniors this year, no? That's just one example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

At least as of October, this is the plan for the Humanities program (page 66): https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DMJHXR4AA9BD/$file/Boundary%20Studies%20Program%20Analysis%20Update%20251016%20PPT%20REV.pdf

LOL, my Blair SMCS kid took more ELA classes and more ELA+social science AP tests than what's shown on this list. And why IB HL English/literature for 11th and 12th grade? Two IB courses won't give you an extra IB credential, does it? Please tell me this is a quick make-believe thing. The new WJ AP Capstone curriculum makes more sense than this one.

HL IB courses are delivered over 2 years in greater depth than SL courses. Which of the IB ELA courses are offered at HL can matter, much as IB Analysis is seen as more rigorous than IB Applications in Math.

So do those randomly popped two HL IB courses in junior and senior years leading to some meaningful rigorous humanity course track? Would teaching those courses require some IB certificate for teachers?

Check ibo.org

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Your Einstein grads had it different. The school admin has progressively decimated advanced classwork in recent years. I could be off by a year, but I think the first class for which there were no pre-IB courses are Seniors this year, no? That's just one example.

It's changed a lot in the past few years with reduced AP and advanced classes so if their child was a grad, that means they were under the former principal who has a very different point of view and made different decisions than the current one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Rumor? There are two engineering classes right now, both taught during the same period/same teacher (who is a good teacher and tries hard but its an impossible task). There are no AP science classes at Einstein right now. Things have changed a lot since your kids went to school. Don't tell us we are lying when we have kids at the school. Is it possible they get in, of course. Does it make it harder when you don't have the same rigor, absolutely?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Your Einstein grads had it different. The school admin has progressively decimated advanced classwork in recent years. I could be off by a year, but I think the first class for which there were no pre-IB courses are Seniors this year, no? That's just one example.

It's changed a lot in the past few years with reduced AP and advanced classes so if their child was a grad, that means they were under the former principal who has a very different point of view and made different decisions than the current one.

Seems to an outside spectator that the biggest problem with Einstein is not loosing the prestigious VAC program, loosing access to Wheaton engineering program, or small population size, but rather a troublesome principal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Rumor? There are two engineering classes right now, both taught during the same period/same teacher (who is a good teacher and tries hard but its an impossible task). There are no AP science classes at Einstein right now. Things have changed a lot since your kids went to school. Don't tell us we are lying when we have kids at the school. Is it possible they get in, of course. Does it make it harder when you don't have the same rigor, absolutely?

I still have a child at the school. It is disingenuous to say they don’t have AP science classes, because it’s an IB school and they have IB science classes. And you don’t have to have engineering classes in high school in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Rumor? There are two engineering classes right now, both taught during the same period/same teacher (who is a good teacher and tries hard but its an impossible task). There are no AP science classes at Einstein right now. Things have changed a lot since your kids went to school. Don't tell us we are lying when we have kids at the school. Is it possible they get in, of course. Does it make it harder when you don't have the same rigor, absolutely?

I still have a child at the school. It is disingenuous to say they don’t have AP science classes, because it’s an IB school and they have IB science classes. And you don’t have to have engineering classes in high school in my opinion.

I just checked the test stats from OSA (office of shared accountability. Believe it or not, there is still somewhere in central office that talks about accountability). Einstein do not consistently offer IB HL math (missing 2022, 2023), IBL bio (missing 2021, 2024) and IB Physics (missing 2020, 2022) in the past 6 years. Not too bad as other local IB programs also miss data here or there. Springbrook and Watkins Mill seem to be most seriously seen missing offering IB courses in a consistent pattern.