Size & placement of regional magnet programs set to decimate non-host, non-rich schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

This is exactly what people have predicted: the new magnet program = a bunch of AP courses that won't be made available to local students if you are not selected or interested in attending one of the magnet programs (STEM, humanity, IB). Or more, as some pp experience, two special courses plus a T-shirt, and we call it a "special program".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

[Anonymous]

Our home school is QO in zone 5. Where could high performing kids at QO go? It seems no where to go after looking at other schools in zone 5.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our home school is QO in zone 5. Where could high performing kids at QO go? It seems no where to go after looking at other schools in zone 5.

My guess? QO kids will stay at QO and build a better home school now that kids won't be leaving for Poolesville.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our home school is QO in zone 5. Where could high performing kids at QO go? It seems no where to go after looking at other schools in zone 5.

That's not necessarily a bad thing for QO. Now top performances lean to stay locally which form the local cohort to make the school stronger in the long run. In the near future, it sucks as they cannot take advantage of Poolsville anymore, so if your kids is already in upper ES or above, they suffer and sacrifice. If they are still learning to read, they may see a better QO than the current version.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

Even the bare bones curriculum outlines that MCPS presented are watered down versions of the current programs. When they find the smaller cohorts do not have enough students to participate successfully in the current curriculum, they will water it down even more.

I think you are double-counting. The "bare bones" curriculum currently outline already includes the "watering down" for smaller cohorts. The further watering down would happen if the parents at more successful kids opt out of the magnet programs, further reducing the academic preparedness and ability of the magnet cohorts.

Top students opt out of attending future magnet -> smaller or less-capable magnet cohort -> further watering down -> poor performance/non-attractive/close-out.
Top students opt in -> smaller cohort than current ones -> relatively OK quality -> more appealing to top student in the region -> draining resource for local HSs.

So both have significant side effects. Why not piloting a 3rd sub-county-wide magnet program, or splitting RMIB coverage into 2-3 regions (similar to Blair vs. Poolsville) to assure the quality and balance between centralized vs. local resource and needs? For those CTE-driven programs, I see bigger problems as there is no survey to what region wants what CTE program.

To quantify this a little bit-- the current magnets generally serve, what, the top 1-2% of students?

The current plans are based on assuming that the academic magnets will serve about 10% of students, but it also assumes that most of those students will want to attend, so that they'll serve students in roughly the top 15% of their grade (and is watered down to reflect that.)

If fewer students are interested, they may need to drop criteria even further, although I can't imagine it could functionally go any further than the top third. (For reference, roughly one-third of MCPS students take the SAT and earn SAT scores above both CCR benchmarks-- 480 reading/writing and 530 math. This varies wildly by school, though-- at many schools it is well under 30%: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED675349.pdf) This would require watering things down further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

Even the bare bones curriculum outlines that MCPS presented are watered down versions of the current programs. When they find the smaller cohorts do not have enough students to participate successfully in the current curriculum, they will water it down even more.

I think you are double-counting. The "bare bones" curriculum currently outline already includes the "watering down" for smaller cohorts. The further watering down would happen if the parents at more successful kids opt out of the magnet programs, further reducing the academic preparedness and ability of the magnet cohorts.

Top students opt out of attending future magnet -> smaller or less-capable magnet cohort -> further watering down -> poor performance/non-attractive/close-out.
Top students opt in -> smaller cohort than current ones -> relatively OK quality -> more appealing to top student in the region -> draining resource for local HSs.

So both have significant side effects. Why not piloting a 3rd sub-county-wide magnet program, or splitting RMIB coverage into 2-3 regions (similar to Blair vs. Poolsville) to assure the quality and balance between centralized vs. local resource and needs? For those CTE-driven programs, I see bigger problems as there is no survey to what region wants what CTE program.

To quantify this a little bit-- the current magnets generally serve, what, the top 1-2% of students?

The current plans are based on assuming that the academic magnets will serve about 10% of students, but it also assumes that most of those students will want to attend, so that they'll serve students in roughly the top 15% of their grade (and is watered down to reflect that.)

If fewer students are interested, they may need to drop criteria even further, although I can't imagine it could functionally go any further than the top third. (For reference, roughly one-third of MCPS students take the SAT and earn SAT scores above both CCR benchmarks-- 480 reading/writing and 530 math. This varies wildly by school, though-- at many schools it is well under 30%: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED675349.pdf) This would require watering things down further.

From the MCPS chart, criterion based magnets currently serve 6% of students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It appears that MCPS is planning on 60 out-of-bounds students per grade for each of the three core academic criteria-based programs (SMCS, IB, and humanities.) if they draw roughly equally from each school, that would be around 45-60 high-achieving kids per grade leaving each school, or roughly 10-15% of the most advanced kids in each grade, which is a very big number. (And if some of the kids at rich schools with strong local offerings opt out, it'll be an even larger share of the kids at the other schools who leave ). Schools who host one of those programs will "receive" 60 advanced and motivated kids from out of bounds in return, of course, but those who don't won't.

The richest schools may be able to handle losing that many motivated kids interested in advanced classes (although none of them will have to because they all get one or more of these programs anyway), but it will be a real blow to most ordinary schools which don't have huge numbers of kids taking advanced classes to begin with. Sure, they may have a few bright kids coming to whatever other programs they're hosting, at least at the start, but if those schools can't field a reasonable number of challenging classes for those kids, loving the arts (or whatever) isn't going to be enough for a kid to choose that school over one where they can take advanced classes.

The list of schools that look likely to be hit by this appear to be: Einstein, Northwood, Blake, Paint Branch, Woodward, Rockville, Magruder, Quince Orchard, Clarksburg, Damascus, and Northwest.

Basically, it seems to me that there are two pathways here: 1) almost half of MCPS schools are seriously harmed by losing a large chunk of top students to attractive academic programs at other schools; and/or 2) the regional pathways are such a disaster that no one wants to leave and so local schools are safe. (Or, frankly, it could be a combination of the two, which could be even worse for some schools-- if a program in your region is successful and draws top kids from your school, while the programs at your school are a flop and don't draw many kids in, you're even worse off.)

Am I wrong here, or is this what other folks think too?

Families will gravitate to whatever proven, high achieving choices there are at high achieving schools. Taylor is upending multiple schools with great programs. People will stampede west, if they can make it to the buses, and the eastside schools will be left picked bare. We will be more segregated than ever. Thanks Taylor you a____e

People already stampede west but now it is only the ones with money. This opens the door for people in the east which is a good thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Poster just anecdotally humble bragged that they know 60% of the college bound out of Einstein graduating class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

Just to clarify: It's not rebranded APEX. APEX is being entirely eliminated. It is being sold as being replaced by AP Capstone. But AP Capstone already exists at WJ and only involves students selecting two particular AP courses (AP Seminar and AP Research). Students who successfully take those two classes and also take four other AP courses get a College Board designation on their diplomas saying AP Capstone. This is already happening at WJ at at most other high schools in MCPS. APEX is being elimated entirely and not being replaced by anything that does not already exists. And yet, the new regional model labels WJ as a Humanities regional program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

Just to clarify: It's not rebranded APEX. APEX is being entirely eliminated. It is being sold as being replaced by AP Capstone. But AP Capstone already exists at WJ and only involves students selecting two particular AP courses (AP Seminar and AP Research). Students who successfully take those two classes and also take four other AP courses get a College Board designation on their diplomas saying AP Capstone. This is already happening at WJ at at most other high schools in MCPS. APEX is being elimated entirely and not being replaced by anything that does not already exists. And yet, the new regional model labels WJ as a Humanities regional program.

Current Apex requirements at WJ -
Apex English 9
Apex Biology 9
AP NSL Government
Apex English 10
AP US History
AP Language and Composition
AP Honors World History
AP Literature
+ four additional AP classes of the students' choice (minimum of 9 total over four years)
+ A certain number of the overall course selection must be in a given pathway, chosen by the student (could be STEM related, Humanities focused, World language focused, etc.)

AP Capstone - AP Seminar, AP Research, and four other APs of the students' choice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Poster just anecdotally humble bragged that they know 60% of the college bound out of Einstein graduating class

Are you claiming that Einstein only has 5 kids going to college each year? That's obnoxious (and ridiculously inaccurate.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

At least as of October, this is the plan for the Humanities program (page 66): https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DMJHXR4AA9BD/$file/Boundary%20Studies%20Program%20Analysis%20Update%20251016%20PPT%20REV.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

They'll go if the host school offers better opportunities than the home school and they can swing the commute.

We are zoned for Einstein. I have hope that Einstein will be a good place for my DC, especially since it will be a relatively smaller school. DC is pretty average academically and will probably be well served with standard MCPS courses available at every high school. But BCC and Blair definitely offer a wider variety of courses, and there are public buses to both of these schools with stops near our home. Whitman would probably be too difficult, nor is it the environment I'd want for DC especially away from all their friends.

For kids who don't want STEM, Einstein is perfect.

I really hate for this rumor to get traction. My Einstein grad is in college for engineering, his good friend who also graduated from Einstein is studying chemistry in college, and a third friend is majoring in physics at UMD. This is flat-out incorrect, apparently driven by that one poster who is annoyed that Einstein doesn’t offer multivariable calculus.

Poster just anecdotally humble bragged that they know 60% of the college bound out of Einstein graduating class

Are you claiming that Einstein only has 5 kids going to college each year? That's obnoxious (and ridiculously inaccurate.)

+1 these same people will claim Einstein is terrible because of bad parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would any parent send their kids to a watered down “magnet”. Won’t happen. Look at what they tried to do the IB programs at Watkins mill and Kennedy.

If the watered-down magnet offers much better classes than the home school does, then parents who can swing the logistics and have kids who want to get into selective colleges will almost feel like they have to send their kids to the magnets to get classes they can't get at the home school and have a peer group of academically focused and motivated kids.

How do you know they will be watered down?

As an example, WJ is designated as a Humanities school under the new model. And yet, WJ is eliminating the APEX program as of next school year, which is arguably the only thing resembling a Humanities program at WJ. They are "replacing it" with the AP Capstone, which is already offered at WJ and most high schools. The AP Capstone is not a program, but a diploma designation for students who choose to take two particular AP courses, plus four other AP courses. So the Humanities program at WJ is nothing new, it's watered down from the current APEX, and it's certainly not a Humanities program.

Thanks for this context. I'd been wondering what the Humanities program might be and how it would be different from IB. Knowing it's a rebranded APEX kind of helps, but I found the APEX program to be poorly defined as is.

At least as of October, this is the plan for the Humanities program (page 66): https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DMJHXR4AA9BD/$file/Boundary%20Studies%20Program%20Analysis%20Update%20251016%20PPT%20REV.pdf

LOL, my Blair SMCS kid took more ELA classes and more ELA+social science AP tests than what's shown on this list. And why IB HL English/literature for 11th and 12th grade? Two IB courses won't give you an extra IB credential, does it? Please tell me this is a quick make-believe thing. The new WJ AP Capstone curriculum makes more sense than this one.