CogAT this year for 2nd grade

[Anonymous]

No one told us that the CogAT's were going to be given on a specific date.

The schools send home notices letting you know which dates the tests will be administered because they want you to make every effort to have your child in school on those dates.
The dates are also usually included on the school's website, on the weekly newsletter that comes home, etc. It's not supposed to be a surprise. It's hard to believe you had no idea when the test was being given.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The scores should be necessary but not sufficient. For admittance, the kid should get high scores, like 128 composite and a high GBRS. Just my humble opinion. Of course, the county haas tghe right to administer it any way they see fit for since it is free.

There are problems with requiring high scores for both standardized tests and GBRS.

Some truly gifted kids do not do well in school and they'll almost always have a "lower" GBRS. They may genuinely have a high I.Q., but not "bring it" in a school environment. Other kids are loud and clear in school abilities. They may advance rapidly in school, but not test well. That's way requiring both a high score and a high GBRS is going to leave out some kids who really need a different environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I never claimed that every kid is test prepped, only that it is possible to test prep. And 120 is not a low score....90 is a low score. In my case, DD was distracted, because we got a puppy the night before. No one told us that the CogAT's were going to be given on a specific date.

gotta remember this one. The puppy ate our CogAts notice.

[Anonymous]

120 is not a low score for the general population, but it is a low score for a gifted group of children.

CogATs are given over a three-day period, so buying a puppy the night before should only affect one day's score, if at all. And NNATs are given a few weeks earlier or later. People always make excuses for their kids' low scores.

Our school was told exactly what week our tests would be given; I'm surprised that your school did not offer you the same courtesy.

And as far as the difference between a 115 and a 130 being a few questions - well that's the difference between average and above average or above average and superior.

Even if test prep companies claim to improve scores 15-20 points, they are usually a bit biased. And the score improvement usually comes on the lower end of the scale - a 100 to a 115 perhaps. It's unlikely they can achieve those results on the higher end. And it's still probably an impossibly small number of students who actually get test prepped for CogAts or NNATs, especially in Fairfax County where the scores obviously are not the only part of the equation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think it's possible to prep a child from 110 to 130. If that is the case, then the tests cannot be worth much. Furthermore, how do we know that a child with a 115 or 122 was not prepped from a 100? I think it's unfair to assume that children who score in the 130's was prepped. I do not know one single person who was prepped for the AAP tests. Do you have any concrete evidence on how much prepping for tests is really going on?

Since you reference the 130 cutoff, I assume your child is in 3rd grade? (As earlier years' cutoffs were higher than 130.) When a child gets into AAP, he or she gets in for 3rd through 8th grade. Is it possible to tout that your child is "excelling" in AAP when she has only been in the program for 7 weeks? In a similar vein, if a child is struggling in one subject area, 7 weeks into the program, does it mean the child does not belong there? Maybe he or she will start excelling in 5th or 6th grade? Maybe he hasn't gotten use to the workload yet? Clearly someone with a 146 score even on one subset belongs in a program that is challenging to him or her, at least in that subject area.

The AAP in Fairfax County has very lax standards. Most programs across the country use a 130 IQ score or similar to screen students. There are no other options - no push from mommy and daddy to get in, no taking of other tests, etc. It actually surprises me that a student with score in the 115-122 range would even be considered for the AAP. Those are pretty average scores - especially for this area.

Anonymous wrote:Here is why each child in the pool should not be automatically admitted: It is because the pool is designed to identify children that are automatically screened...Granted, all children with IQ's of 130 should be admitted, but the NNAT and CogAT's do not measure IQ.

The thing is some parents "train" or "prep" for the tests. With proper preparation, the test prep services can increase the scores by 20 points.....So 110 becomes 130.

And it only takes one 130 on any aspect of the test to enter the pool. If there was a super-pool where the average was 130, I would think that that could be automatic admission.

BTW, my DD who scored 115-122 on the various aspects of the test is excelling in the AAP program. One of her friends, who was in the pool (scores ranging from 105 - 146) is struggling and not getting the compacted math.

I think for the most part, the committee knows what they are doing, and tries to find reasons to admit children.

BTW, my DD, who scored 118-122 on the tests is excelling in the AAP program....I figured we were too far from 130 to bother, but the AAP teacher said that she thought DC should be in the the AAP program, so we worked

Another way the scores can be thrown off is that a lot of the kids in elementary school were started late. Meaning, they qualified to attend school based on their age, but their parents held them back so that they would have an advantage. You can tell by peeking into any K-3rd grade class b/c there are clearly kids who are about 1 head taller and bigger than the rest of the kids.

I know of one kid who was held back one grade because he didn't get into an AAP program so the parents made him repeat 2nd grade in another school. Therefore, he's taking the easier 2nd grade version of the NNAT and CogAT instead of the 3rd grade version.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought NNAT accounted for the language and cultural differences, and that's why FCPS added it.

To me the whole process of getting in is a bit ridiculous (and my child is in the program). When I read about the history of the program in Fairfax County, it sounds like it was really a program for accelerated learners, with only about 5% of the students in the program. Now it seems just to be the class for "smart kids." I believe that 15% of the student body is in the Advanced Academic Program. (And I don't doubt that is a big reason it is no longer called the "Gifted and Talented" program.) It must really water down the program for those students who really are "gifted" or at least scoring in the "very superior" range on these tests. And I'm not saying this because my child is one of those truly "gifted" or "very superior" students, he's not.

I just don't see how a student who scores in the 115-122 range on each and every subset of these tests can perform at the same level as students who score in the 130s, 140s, and 150s.

Anonymous wrote:

If no system is perfect, according to you then why not just use test scores and call it a day? It's a lot cheaper and easier to come up with a test cutoff and allow only those above the threshold in.

Because this method is known to exclude children with specific learning disabilities (for example, dyslexia), children from disadvantaged backgrounds and children for whom English is a second language. I think it says something about FCPS that they are not OK with accepting that risk. Yes, it makes the selection system more arcane and take longer. But it's better than the alternative.

Success in school isn't just about a kid performing on his/her own, but also about parental involvement and being with peers that are smart too. It rubs off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm "arguing" from the premise that a child who has low scores on each of 3 subsets of the CoGAT and on the NNAT does not necessarily belong in AAP, despite his or her parent claiming the child does not test well, that other kids with high test scores on any or all of these tests was obviously test prepped, and that the child is excelling six weeks into the school year, despite his or her low scores.

I never claimed that every kid is test prepped, only that it is possible to test prep. And 120 is not a low score....90 is a low score. In my case, DD was distracted, because we got a puppy the night before. No one told us that the CogAT's were going to be given on a specific date.

GBRS scores were very high....school work is uniformly excellent.

The thing is, FCPS knows that the tests are not perfect, and that standardized tests for second graders is not optimal. It goes both ways, some score better than ability, some score worse. Some parents pay for test prep....and it does exist...google CogAT test prep. They claim 15-20 point improvement. The difference in 115 and 130 is only a handful of questions.

I know FCPS tries to get children into AAP, they look for evidence.

What school is this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The scores should be necessary but not sufficient. For admittance, the kid should get high scores, like 128 composite and a high GBRS. Just my humble opinion. Of course, the county haas tghe right to administer it any way they see fit for since it is free.

There are problems with requiring high scores for both standardized tests and GBRS.

Some truly gifted kids do not do well in school and they'll almost always have a "lower" GBRS. They may genuinely have a high I.Q., but not "bring it" in a school environment. Other kids are loud and clear in school abilities. They may advance rapidly in school, but not test well. That's way requiring both a high score and a high GBRS is going to leave out some kids who really need a different environment.

These gifted kids who don't do well in school or the GBRS....so, what is their gift? Also, please don't say "video games."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I never claimed that every kid is test prepped, only that it is possible to test prep. And 120 is not a low score....90 is a low score. In my case, DD was distracted, because we got a puppy the night before. No one told us that the CogAT's were going to be given on a specific date.

gotta remember this one. The puppy ate our CogAts notice.

LMFAO!!!!

[Anonymous]

Another way the scores can be thrown off is that a lot of the kids in elementary school were started late. Meaning, they qualified to attend school based on their age, but their parents held them back so that they would have an advantage. You can tell by peeking into any K-3rd grade class b/c there are clearly kids who are about 1 head taller and bigger than the rest of the kids.

How did you determine anyone is gaining an advantage this way?

The tests are scored by age. My kid was NOT held back but he is old for his grade by virtue of having a birthday one month after the cutoff. His scores very clearly stated his age at the time of testing as 7 yrs, 11 months, and his national percentiles and scaled scores were for kids his age. The same is true for kids in his class who were younger. My daughter is an August birthday and one of the youngest in her class, and the same was true of her scores a few years back.

[Anonymous]

Some truly gifted kids do not do well in school and they'll almost always have a "lower" GBRS. They may genuinely have a high I.Q., but not "bring it" in a school environment. Other kids are loud and clear in school abilities. They may advance rapidly in school, but not test well. That's way requiring both a high score and a high GBRS is going to leave out some kids who really need a different environment.

Don't forget it's no longer the GT programs; it's now the AAP program. They are not looking for kids who are just gifted; they're looking for kids who are academically advanced. If the kid has a high IQ but cannot "bring it" in school and generally does not do well in school, should he be in an academically advanced program?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The scores should be necessary but not sufficient. For admittance, the kid should get high scores, like 128 composite and a high GBRS. Just my humble opinion. Of course, the county haas tghe right to administer it any way they see fit for since it is free.

There are problems with requiring high scores for both standardized tests and GBRS.

Some truly gifted kids do not do well in school and they'll almost always have a "lower" GBRS. They may genuinely have a high I.Q., but not "bring it" in a school environment. Other kids are loud and clear in school abilities. They may advance rapidly in school, but not test well. That's way requiring both a high score and a high GBRS is going to leave out some kids who really need a different environment.

These gifted kids who don't do well in school or the GBRS....so, what is their gift? Also, please don't say "video games."

you are not paying attention. some kids who don't score high on the tests or GBRS or both nevertheless "really need a different environment." Do try to keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I never claimed that every kid is test prepped, only that it is possible to test prep. And 120 is not a low score....90 is a low score. In my case, DD was distracted, because we got a puppy the night before. No one told us that the CogAT's were going to be given on a specific date.

gotta remember this one. The puppy ate our CogAts notice.

This is the best post I have read on DCUM since joining in 2001!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Another way the scores can be thrown off is that a lot of the kids in elementary school were started late. Meaning, they qualified to attend school based on their age, but their parents held them back so that they would have an advantage. You can tell by peeking into any K-3rd grade class b/c there are clearly kids who are about 1 head taller and bigger than the rest of the kids.

How did you determine anyone is gaining an advantage this way?

The tests are scored by age. My kid was NOT held back but he is old for his grade by virtue of having a birthday one month after the cutoff. His scores very clearly stated his age at the time of testing as 7 yrs, 11 months, and his national percentiles and scaled scores were for kids his age. The same is true for kids in his class who were younger. My daughter is an August birthday and one of the youngest in her class, and the same was true of her scores a few years back.

Nobody's talking about your kid. What I'm talking about are the kids that are intentionally held back, and in this case, a kid who took the test twice in the same grade after his parents held him back for another year of 2nd grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The scores should be necessary but not sufficient. For admittance, the kid should get high scores, like 128 composite and a high GBRS. Just my humble opinion. Of course, the county haas tghe right to administer it any way they see fit for since it is free.

There are problems with requiring high scores for both standardized tests and GBRS.

Some truly gifted kids do not do well in school and they'll almost always have a "lower" GBRS. They may genuinely have a high I.Q., but not "bring it" in a school environment. Other kids are loud and clear in school abilities. They may advance rapidly in school, but not test well. That's way requiring both a high score and a high GBRS is going to leave out some kids who really need a different environment.

These gifted kids who don't do well in school or the GBRS....so, what is their gift? Also, please don't say "video games."

you are not paying attention. some kids who don't score high on the tests or GBRS or both nevertheless "really need a different environment." Do try to keep up.

These kids aren't necessarily gifted...maybe they are just slow, like you.