Cheating in high school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No HS student does perfect work in their first draft. We just caught a kid that way (among other obvious clues like timing to do it, etc.). To produce highly polished text requires multiple drafts, edits, corrections, etc.

We challenged this kid to show us his working drafts since he claimed he did the work elsewhere. He didn't because he couldn't.

Next year, I expect our school to have a formal policy stating that all work will be done in the same document with the editing history available to the instructor.

It's a hard barrier for cheaters to get around.

You'd be shocked how many students can bypass this. It's really only hard for first timers.

Cutting and pasting sections of text one at a time won't fool anyone. What else is there if you are importing a perfect document into what should be a series of drafts with imperfections?

Why wouldn’t they just type it? Seems very easy to workaround.

[Anonymous]

My response: if the class grade is based on the ability to generate a discussion question and answer, it's probably a pretty stupid class. And fi the teacher wants to prevent AI, require an in-class, proctored essay exam that's worth more than anything done out of class and possibly by AI. If a kid does the out of class work and learns things, they'll be fine. If the kid uses AI and learns things (possible!), they'll be fine. If the kid uses AI and doesn't learn anything, they'll flunk.

I don't think you have any idea how difficult it is for teachers to redesign their course materials and assessments. The time required to monitor AI-generated work is enormous. There is no gratification either for telling students (and their parents) that they cheated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No HS student does perfect work in their first draft. We just caught a kid that way (among other obvious clues like timing to do it, etc.). To produce highly polished text requires multiple drafts, edits, corrections, etc.

We challenged this kid to show us his working drafts since he claimed he did the work elsewhere. He didn't because he couldn't.

Next year, I expect our school to have a formal policy stating that all work will be done in the same document with the editing history available to the instructor.

It's a hard barrier for cheaters to get around.

You'd be shocked how many students can bypass this. It's really only hard for first timers.

Cutting and pasting sections of text one at a time won't fool anyone. What else is there if you are importing a perfect document into what should be a series of drafts with imperfections?

Why wouldn’t they just type it? Seems very easy to workaround.

Because then it's all done in one draft. No one does a perfect product in one draft. When a teacher can look at every single revision, they see the evolution of the work with edits and changes.

If each version has 10% of a perfect draft added each time, that's also obvious.

Without those, it's unlikely to be genuine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of cheating in Sidwell US, much worse since Covid

The cheating in Sidwell’s Chemistry 1A class (current sophomores) has been terrible this year!

My DC has told me about so much cheating in the 10th grade Sidwell class. It's kind of hysterical and the administration seems so frazzled and have no idea what to do about it. I just tell DC to just not cheat and at the end of the day your brain is growing more. So many kids have not gotten caught. And FYI, they have empty threats to do anything about it.

Teachers know exactly what to do to stop cheating: signed honor code with consequences for cheating before each assessment, collect all devices, backpacks at front of room, pockets emptied, assigned seating, multiple versions of tests, assign students to multiple testing rooms, increase # of proctors and have proctors proctor, not on phones or laptops, jackets / sweaters off, no unescorted bathroom breaks… but none of this will happen… perhaps Administrators are not allowing teachers to stop cheating. Cheating increases rankings, enrollments are down, endowments are down. The privates are too competitive to want to bother with all this blatant cheating

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Cheating is awful at my DC’s catholic school. Kids get caught and continue to cheat. You wonder why 1/2 the class now has all As.

Agree, the cheating at son’s Catholic school has increased and is not being addressed, Board of Trustees seemingly unconcerned

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No HS student does perfect work in their first draft. We just caught a kid that way (among other obvious clues like timing to do it, etc.). To produce highly polished text requires multiple drafts, edits, corrections, etc.

We challenged this kid to show us his working drafts since he claimed he did the work elsewhere. He didn't because he couldn't.

Next year, I expect our school to have a formal policy stating that all work will be done in the same document with the editing history available to the instructor.

It's a hard barrier for cheaters to get around.

You'd be shocked how many students can bypass this. It's really only hard for first timers.

Cutting and pasting sections of text one at a time won't fool anyone. What else is there if you are importing a perfect document into what should be a series of drafts with imperfections?

Why wouldn’t they just type it? Seems very easy to workaround.

Because then it's all done in one draft. No one does a perfect product in one draft. When a teacher can look at every single revision, they see the evolution of the work with edits and changes.

If each version has 10% of a perfect draft added each time, that's also obvious.

Without those, it's unlikely to be genuine.

The way admin allows cheating in this scenario is to give the prompts in advance and the students pre-write their responses and copy they down from their phones or cheat sheets. The students often keep a second device and use that from their laps, or right on their desks at my son’s school because the proctors are not proctoring. Why turn in cheaters when admin does nothing and won’t support teachers trying to shut down cheating

Remember, all these students cheating in HS and college will one day be your future physicians. Think about that. Children that cheat all the way through will possibly have your life in their hands one day in the OR. Comforting thought

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No HS student does perfect work in their first draft. We just caught a kid that way (among other obvious clues like timing to do it, etc.). To produce highly polished text requires multiple drafts, edits, corrections, etc.

We challenged this kid to show us his working drafts since he claimed he did the work elsewhere. He didn't because he couldn't.

Next year, I expect our school to have a formal policy stating that all work will be done in the same document with the editing history available to the instructor.

It's a hard barrier for cheaters to get around.

You'd be shocked how many students can bypass this. It's really only hard for first timers.

Cutting and pasting sections of text one at a time won't fool anyone. What else is there if you are importing a perfect document into what should be a series of drafts with imperfections?

Why wouldn’t they just type it? Seems very easy to workaround.

Because then it's all done in one draft. No one does a perfect product in one draft. When a teacher can look at every single revision, they see the evolution of the work with edits and changes.

If each version has 10% of a perfect draft added each time, that's also obvious.

Without those, it's unlikely to be genuine.

The way admin allows cheating in this scenario is to give the prompts in advance and the students pre-write their responses and copy they down from their phones or cheat sheets. The students often keep a second device and use that from their laps, or right on their desks at my son’s school because the proctors are not proctoring. Why turn in cheaters when admin does nothing and won’t support teachers trying to shut down cheating

Remember, all these students cheating in HS and college will one day be your future physicians. Think about that. Children that cheat all the way through will possibly have your life in their hands one day in the OR. Comforting thought

That is a poorly rum school. All of that is easily preventable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No HS student does perfect work in their first draft. We just caught a kid that way (among other obvious clues like timing to do it, etc.). To produce highly polished text requires multiple drafts, edits, corrections, etc.

We challenged this kid to show us his working drafts since he claimed he did the work elsewhere. He didn't because he couldn't.

Next year, I expect our school to have a formal policy stating that all work will be done in the same document with the editing history available to the instructor.

It's a hard barrier for cheaters to get around.

You'd be shocked how many students can bypass this. It's really only hard for first timers.

Cutting and pasting sections of text one at a time won't fool anyone. What else is there if you are importing a perfect document into what should be a series of drafts with imperfections?

Why wouldn’t they just type it? Seems very easy to workaround.

Because then it's all done in one draft. No one does a perfect product in one draft. When a teacher can look at every single revision, they see the evolution of the work with edits and changes.

If each version has 10% of a perfect draft added each time, that's also obvious.

Without those, it's unlikely to be genuine.

The way admin allows cheating in this scenario is to give the prompts in advance and the students pre-write their responses and copy they down from their phones or cheat sheets. The students often keep a second device and use that from their laps, or right on their desks at my son’s school because the proctors are not proctoring. Why turn in cheaters when admin does nothing and won’t support teachers trying to shut down cheating

Remember, all these students cheating in HS and college will one day be your future physicians. Think about that. Children that cheat all the way through will possibly have your life in their hands one day in the OR. Comforting thought

That is a poorly rum school. All of that is easily preventable.

PP’s point is that the school has no incentive to prevent it. Parents aren’t paying for well-run schools, they are paying for schools that confirm their opinion that their kids are smart and honorable. It’s never in a private school’s interest to tell rich and powerful parents that their children are academically average students who cheat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of cheating in Sidwell US, much worse since Covid

The cheating in Sidwell’s Chemistry 1A class (current sophomores) has been terrible this year!

My DC has told me about so much cheating in the 10th grade Sidwell class. It's kind of hysterical and the administration seems so frazzled and have no idea what to do about it. I just tell DC to just not cheat and at the end of the day your brain is growing more. So many kids have not gotten caught. And FYI, they have empty threats to do anything about it.

Teachers know exactly what to do to stop cheating: signed honor code with consequences for cheating before each assessment, collect all devices, backpacks at front of room, pockets emptied, assigned seating, multiple versions of tests, assign students to multiple testing rooms, increase # of proctors and have proctors proctor, not on phones or laptops, jackets / sweaters off, no unescorted bathroom breaks… but none of this will happen… perhaps Administrators are not allowing teachers to stop cheating. Cheating increases rankings, enrollments are down, endowments are down. The privates are too competitive to want to bother with all this blatant cheating

This is it.

I've been teaching in private schools for almost 20 years, in a few different places. It's always like this, but in the past few years has gotten worse, simply because more kids are cheating these days.

Private schools are businesses. Admin do NOT look favorably upon teachers who flag too many problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The easy solution to this is

- no cell phones in classes - no pictures of tests, not pre-written notes to access etc.

- blue book tests for everything as a baseline. Teachers can see the writing styles of their students and have a basis of comparison for papers submitted later in the semester.

I’m on board with this but I bet there are teachers using AI to grade tests who may not like it. Did anyone see the NYT article today about college profs using AI to grade?

That's actually kinda funny -- the idea that kids are using AI to write and the professors are using AI to grade. Might as well leave the people out of the picture. Students and teachers, all replaced by AI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No HS student does perfect work in their first draft. We just caught a kid that way (among other obvious clues like timing to do it, etc.). To produce highly polished text requires multiple drafts, edits, corrections, etc.

We challenged this kid to show us his working drafts since he claimed he did the work elsewhere. He didn't because he couldn't.

Next year, I expect our school to have a formal policy stating that all work will be done in the same document with the editing history available to the instructor.

It's a hard barrier for cheaters to get around.

You'd be shocked how many students can bypass this. It's really only hard for first timers.

Cutting and pasting sections of text one at a time won't fool anyone. What else is there if you are importing a perfect document into what should be a series of drafts with imperfections?

Why wouldn’t they just type it? Seems very easy to workaround.

Because then it's all done in one draft. No one does a perfect product in one draft. When a teacher can look at every single revision, they see the evolution of the work with edits and changes.

If each version has 10% of a perfect draft added each time, that's also obvious.

Without those, it's unlikely to be genuine.

The way admin allows cheating in this scenario is to give the prompts in advance and the students pre-write their responses and copy they down from their phones or cheat sheets. The students often keep a second device and use that from their laps, or right on their desks at my son’s school because the proctors are not proctoring. Why turn in cheaters when admin does nothing and won’t support teachers trying to shut down cheating

Remember, all these students cheating in HS and college will one day be your future physicians. Think about that. Children that cheat all the way through will possibly have your life in their hands one day in the OR. Comforting thought

That is a poorly rum school. All of that is easily preventable.

PP’s point is that the school has no incentive to prevent it. Parents aren’t paying for well-run schools, they are paying for schools that confirm their opinion that their kids are smart and honorable. It’s never in a private school’s interest to tell rich and powerful parents that their children are academically average students who cheat.

I have only ever taught at schools that try to teach kids to be smart and honorable. Not all are, sadly.

I would be out the door in a flash if I were told to put up with any of this nonsense. Most teachers would, I think. Sad to hear that are some really crap schools out there doing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The easy solution to this is

- no cell phones in classes - no pictures of tests, not pre-written notes to access etc.

- blue book tests for everything as a baseline. Teachers can see the writing styles of their students and have a basis of comparison for papers submitted later in the semester.

I’m on board with this but I bet there are teachers using AI to grade tests who may not like it. Did anyone see the NYT article today about college profs using AI to grade?

That's actually kinda funny -- the idea that kids are using AI to write and the professors are using AI to grade. Might as well leave the people out of the picture. Students and teachers, all replaced by AI.

Some educators think the future is teachers essentially showing kids how to use AI and mediating the results for the best AI outcome.

I will be retired by then, fortunately. The potential consequences in many aspects of life are scary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At my 10th grader's school, the use of AI is rampant too, but the students are getting caught and are facing consequences. The way my child explained it to me is that teachers require you to also submit your working document along with uploading your final document. The teachers then use some kind of AI detector on the working document and the final version that allows them to detect whether AI was used on any of the versions and can also detect whether any large portions were copied and pasted. Last week, several students were caught, and they all received zero points for the assignment (which will account for a significant part of their final grade), are required to serve detention/suspension, and must meet with the department chair with their parents. They also lose special privileges and the ability to participate in some programs. Any 9th grade students caught cheating lose a lot of privileges, like participation in the foreign exchange program, etc.

What if you use AI to create the first working document? Kids aren’t dumb and they run their work through the exact AI detector your school uses until it says 0% AI.

What am I missing?

I'm not completely sure about how they are getting caught, but my child's working documents are drafted in Google docs, I believe, so as they are doing the process of getting started on a paper and physically typing, then editing, moving things around, etc, the automatically saved versions and maybe the process somehow looks different to the detector than the copying of pasting of things and having one or two rough draft versions rather than the working document of someone who is actually working through writing a paper.

So, you could use AI to write the first version, print it out and then retype it into Google Docs so that appears to be your first draft.

No HS student does perfect work in their first draft. We just caught a kid that way (among other obvious clues like timing to do it, etc.). To produce highly polished text requires multiple drafts, edits, corrections, etc.

We challenged this kid to show us his working drafts since he claimed he did the work elsewhere. He didn't because he couldn't.

Next year, I expect our school to have a formal policy stating that all work will be done in the same document with the editing history available to the instructor.

It's a hard barrier for cheaters to get around.

You seriously are delusional if you haven't realized how much AI has advanced. You do realize you can ask AI to produce a first draft with errors, then ask to edit only a certain percentage, and so on. Student has two computers and asks AI to do work on one and then student retypes it on google docs. Students are way, way ahead of some teachers.

There needs to be a switch to oral exams and in class essays. Teachers should be printing more so there are hard copies of documents like DBQ on AP tests. Student gets handed three documents to analyze and then has to write an in class essay in pen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cheating is awful at my DC’s catholic school. Kids get caught and continue to cheat. You wonder why 1/2 the class now has all As.

Agree, the cheating at son’s Catholic school has increased and is not being addressed, Board of Trustees seemingly unconcerned

Is this Gonzaga? Georgetown Prep?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You seriously are delusional if you haven't realized how much AI has advanced. You do realize you can ask AI to produce a first draft with errors, then ask to edit only a certain percentage, and so on. Student has two computers and asks AI to do work on one and then student retypes it on google docs. Students are way, way ahead of some teachers.

There needs to be a switch to oral exams and in class essays. Teachers should be printing more so there are hard copies of documents like DBQ on AP tests. Student gets handed three documents to analyze and then has to write an in class essay in pen.

At the school where my DD goes some of her teachers do this. How this is bypassed is that students steal exams/teacher's notes beforehand when in detention, Helping the teacher after school/class. or go in when the teacher isn't there. There will usually be around five kids per scheme. They then give it to AI and it does the rest.