Who holds the power in the marriage dating market?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

To me, women aren’t saying this out of rejection, but exhaustion from dealing with low commitment men and cheaters. Obviously it’s not good to scare men off or come off abrasive, but deep down most women are thinking it. If you don’t know what you want and can’t be faithful or committed, please leave me alone.

I just wonder how women expect men to react to these statements. Do you guys believe that men are supposed to think "Okay, wow. She really wants to get married. It's a good thing I'm marriage-minded too. I definitely know to put my best foot forward now."

Or do men conclude that this woman has been through it and simply decide to move onto a woman who has not had her heartbroken 1000 times?

Only in Tyler Perry movies do men want to deal with broken women and give them the world.

[Anonymous]

My experience as a divorced woman is that most "quality " men marry youngish (under 40, many under 30) and stay married. That's why women in their 30s and 40s dating older men are generally screwed- the pool is so small

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

To me, women aren’t saying this out of rejection, but exhaustion from dealing with low commitment men and cheaters. Obviously it’s not good to scare men off or come off abrasive, but deep down most women are thinking it. If you don’t know what you want and can’t be faithful or committed, please leave me alone.

I just wonder how women expect men to react to these statements. Do you guys believe that men are supposed to think "Okay, wow. She really wants to get married. It's a good thing I'm marriage-minded too. I definitely know to put my best foot forward now."

Or do men conclude that this woman has been through it and simply decide to move onto a woman who has not had her heartbroken 1000 times?

Only in Tyler Perry movies do men want to deal with broken women and give them the world.

Because it matters how old you are when you say that stuff. If you say "I'd like to be married in my mid-thirties" and you're 35, that's going to come across as too fast a pace. If you say it when you're 25, that's going to come across as a really normal aspiration that some people wouldn't speak aloud-- but it's the saying it, not the thinking it, that's unusual. I literally said that exact thing to my now-DH when we were both 25 and starting to date, and it didn't faze him at all. Because he's a normal person!

And yes, there definitely are men who want to get married to someone, and they appreciate knowing when a woman also wants to get married. If they don't think that, then you don't date. It's really very simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

Men don't need clarity. Most men assume that most women want to get married. Just like most women assume most men want to have sex with them. Making declarations about what you want is pointless. A man who declares that a woman needs to give him sex by the 3rd date likely isn't getting any from any woman, and a woman who declares that she's "not about the games" is unwittingly communicating to men that she's been played by several men and/or has not been deemed worthy of commitment by any of the men she's dealt with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

Men don't need clarity. Most men assume that most women want to get married. Just like most women assume most men want to have sex with them. Making declarations about what you want is pointless. A man who declares that a woman needs to give him sex by the 3rd date likely isn't getting any from any woman, and a woman who declares that she's "not about the games" is unwittingly communicating to men that she's been played by several men and/or has not been deemed worthy of commitment by any of the men she's dealt with.

Maybe just stop dating people who talk in reality show cliches then? I literally never hear anyone say that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

To me, women aren’t saying this out of rejection, but exhaustion from dealing with low commitment men and cheaters. Obviously it’s not good to scare men off or come off abrasive, but deep down most women are thinking it. If you don’t know what you want and can’t be faithful or committed, please leave me alone.

I just wonder how women expect men to react to these statements. Do you guys believe that men are supposed to think "Okay, wow. She really wants to get married. It's a good thing I'm marriage-minded too. I definitely know to put my best foot forward now."

Or do men conclude that this woman has been through it and simply decide to move onto a woman who has not had her heartbroken 1000 times?

Only in Tyler Perry movies do men want to deal with broken women and give them the world.

Because it matters how old you are when you say that stuff. If you say "I'd like to be married in my mid-thirties" and you're 35, that's going to come across as too fast a pace. If you say it when you're 25, that's going to come across as a really normal aspiration that some people wouldn't speak aloud-- but it's the saying it, not the thinking it, that's unusual. I literally said that exact thing to my now-DH when we were both 25 and starting to date, and it didn't faze him at all. Because he's a normal person!

And yes, there definitely are men who want to get married to someone, and they appreciate knowing when a woman also wants to get married. If they don't think that, then you don't date. It's really very simple.

Well, it's usually older women who are saying this, not women in their mid 20s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

Men don't need clarity. Most men assume that most women want to get married. Just like most women assume most men want to have sex with them. Making declarations about what you want is pointless. A man who declares that a woman needs to give him sex by the 3rd date likely isn't getting any from any woman, and a woman who declares that she's "not about the games" is unwittingly communicating to men that she's been played by several men and/or has not been deemed worthy of commitment by any of the men she's dealt with.

Maybe just stop dating people who talk in reality show cliches then? I literally never hear anyone say that.

How many dates have you been on with women in the 30s?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

To me, women aren’t saying this out of rejection, but exhaustion from dealing with low commitment men and cheaters. Obviously it’s not good to scare men off or come off abrasive, but deep down most women are thinking it. If you don’t know what you want and can’t be faithful or committed, please leave me alone.

I just wonder how women expect men to react to these statements. Do you guys believe that men are supposed to think "Okay, wow. She really wants to get married. It's a good thing I'm marriage-minded too. I definitely know to put my best foot forward now."

Or do men conclude that this woman has been through it and simply decide to move onto a woman who has not had her heartbroken 1000 times?

Only in Tyler Perry movies do men want to deal with broken women and give them the world.

Because it matters how old you are when you say that stuff. If you say "I'd like to be married in my mid-thirties" and you're 35, that's going to come across as too fast a pace. If you say it when you're 25, that's going to come across as a really normal aspiration that some people wouldn't speak aloud-- but it's the saying it, not the thinking it, that's unusual. I literally said that exact thing to my now-DH when we were both 25 and starting to date, and it didn't faze him at all. Because he's a normal person!

And yes, there definitely are men who want to get married to someone, and they appreciate knowing when a woman also wants to get married. If they don't think that, then you don't date. It's really very simple.

There are plenty of women out there who are also game players and cheaters. I don’t think it is wrong to ask “where do you see your future going?” Or “do you see yourself getting married?”. I don’t say it to men, but I am indeed not here for the games. Men don’t get the intense pressure of the pregnancy time clock.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

To me, women aren’t saying this out of rejection, but exhaustion from dealing with low commitment men and cheaters. Obviously it’s not good to scare men off or come off abrasive, but deep down most women are thinking it. If you don’t know what you want and can’t be faithful or committed, please leave me alone.

I just wonder how women expect men to react to these statements. Do you guys believe that men are supposed to think "Okay, wow. She really wants to get married. It's a good thing I'm marriage-minded too. I definitely know to put my best foot forward now."

Or do men conclude that this woman has been through it and simply decide to move onto a woman who has not had her heartbroken 1000 times?

Only in Tyler Perry movies do men want to deal with broken women and give them the world.

Because it matters how old you are when you say that stuff. If you say "I'd like to be married in my mid-thirties" and you're 35, that's going to come across as too fast a pace. If you say it when you're 25, that's going to come across as a really normal aspiration that some people wouldn't speak aloud-- but it's the saying it, not the thinking it, that's unusual. I literally said that exact thing to my now-DH when we were both 25 and starting to date, and it didn't faze him at all. Because he's a normal person!

And yes, there definitely are men who want to get married to someone, and they appreciate knowing when a woman also wants to get married. If they don't think that, then you don't date. It's really very simple.

There are plenty of women out there who are also game players and cheaters. I don’t think it is wrong to ask “where do you see your future going?” Or “do you see yourself getting married?”. I don’t say it to men, but I am indeed not here for the games. Men don’t get the intense pressure of the pregnancy time clock.

This is why women in their mid 30s should freeze their eggs. The desire to make babies can cause you to rush into bad situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

Not PP but it is not the thought or suggestion itself -- it is the fact that it is spoken at all. Only someone nuts or damaged would communicate that so directly -- so even if you wanted to get married soon or now and have kids you would think twice with this person. And PP's example is great --- you may want to do it with the guy but if he said that you likely would not -- same thing.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

Men don't need clarity. Most men assume that most women want to get married. Just like most women assume most men want to have sex with them. Making declarations about what you want is pointless. A man who declares that a woman needs to give him sex by the 3rd date likely isn't getting any from any woman, and a woman who declares that she's "not about the games" is unwittingly communicating to men that she's been played by several men and/or has not been deemed worthy of commitment by any of the men she's dealt with.

A lot of people have been seriously hurt in the process of dating. This is a big cause of the non commitment and aggressive behaviors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marriage minded men are typically off the market early, which is why college and grad school are great times and places to meet your future spouse, contrary to popular DCUM narrative that only flyover plebes do this.

+1. Most of my friends married guys they met in college or graduate school.

Most colleges are more female than male now, some unfortunately miss the boat on this.

By a big margin. Most colleges in the US are 60-40 female-male = 3 women for every 2 men.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

3 is a way to get non-Alist guys -- I don't mean type A -- I mean smart, ambitious guys -- they will go for the jobs you do not like. The guys that are left -- what you call the "well enough" guys are a combo of not smart, not serious, have issues that women on DCUM talk about all the time, who in 20 years will never make enough for you. The guys you do not like are the ones that women should target.

Oh please. I'm very happily married to someone who would never want one of those jobs, is plenty smart and serious, makes more than enough money, and is a great and present father. I would be miserable as a BigLaw wife. Ugh.

Why do you think you would be miserable as a BigLaw wife? Just curious - as I am one. Never been miserable. I would be miserable with what I see as the description of Biglaw life that was just not DH's experience.

Because I was a BigLaw associate in 2008 and saw how miserable everyone was and the losses the partners took. Because I really like my kids to have a father who is present and available (not saying yours isn't, it's just not the norm-- or maybe we define those things differently). Because I don't like having to go to events. Because I'm more attracted to guys who are trying to make a difference in the world, as long as they're sensible about it, and I don't really feel the need for that level of money in general.

I was a Biglaw partner in 2008 -- what losses are you talking about? 2008 was a good year -- things happened too late to make a bad year and 2009 was a blow out year because the second half was so great -- what losses did the partners suffer? My DW goes to no events and never has -- I have a lot of time for the kids -- in fact more time in a lot of key ways than my DW -- but I have learned that my experience may not be like others. I never was an associate - clerkships right to Fed with promotions and high impact cases and then to partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

Not PP but it is not the thought or suggestion itself -- it is the fact that it is spoken at all. Only someone nuts or damaged would communicate that so directly -- so even if you wanted to get married soon or now and have kids you would think twice with this person. And PP's example is great --- you may want to do it with the guy but if he said that you likely would not -- same thing.

Exactly. Women never think about this from the opposite perspective.