Who holds the power in the marriage dating market?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

3 is a way to get non-Alist guys -- I don't mean type A -- I mean smart, ambitious guys -- they will go for the jobs you do not like. The guys that are left -- what you call the "well enough" guys are a combo of not smart, not serious, have issues that women on DCUM talk about all the time, who in 20 years will never make enough for you. The guys you do not like are the ones that women should target.

Oh please. I'm very happily married to someone who would never want one of those jobs, is plenty smart and serious, makes more than enough money, and is a great and present father. I would be miserable as a BigLaw wife. Ugh.

Why do you think you would be miserable as a BigLaw wife? Just curious - as I am one. Never been miserable. I would be miserable with what I see as the description of Biglaw life that was just not DH's experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Why the focus on the hours?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

3 is a way to get non-Alist guys -- I don't mean type A -- I mean smart, ambitious guys -- they will go for the jobs you do not like. The guys that are left -- what you call the "well enough" guys are a combo of not smart, not serious, have issues that women on DCUM talk about all the time, who in 20 years will never make enough for you. The guys you do not like are the ones that women should target.

Oh please. I'm very happily married to someone who would never want one of those jobs, is plenty smart and serious, makes more than enough money, and is a great and present father. I would be miserable as a BigLaw wife. Ugh.

Why do you think you would be miserable as a BigLaw wife? Just curious - as I am one. Never been miserable. I would be miserable with what I see as the description of Biglaw life that was just not DH's experience.

Because I was a BigLaw associate in 2008 and saw how miserable everyone was and the losses the partners took. Because I really like my kids to have a father who is present and available (not saying yours isn't, it's just not the norm-- or maybe we define those things differently). Because I don't like having to go to events. Because I'm more attracted to guys who are trying to make a difference in the world, as long as they're sensible about it, and I don't really feel the need for that level of money in general.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Why the focus on the hours?

Because what I want for my kids is a father who is available and spends time with them, and I also have my own career, and it's hard to make that work if he's constantly working terrible hours and traveling. I was a BigLaw associate myself and saw the toll it can take on your personal relationships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Well...considering 21 year olds that go work for Amazon or Google can make around $200k, or at least start in banking or consulting and make $150k+, etc....making $60-$80k in late 20s seems pretty low.

Many of those jobs are in locations with insane real estate prices. That is why the salaries are so high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Well...considering 21 year olds that go work for Amazon or Google can make around $200k, or at least start in banking or consulting and make $150k+, etc....making $60-$80k in late 20s seems pretty low.

Many of those jobs are in locations with insane real estate prices. That is why the salaries are so high.

Tthere aren't really that many of those guys in DC anyway. I think of the $60-80K guys as having not gone to grad school yet. They'll come out with a JD and a much better job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Well...considering 21 year olds that go work for Amazon or Google can make around $200k, or at least start in banking or consulting and make $150k+, etc....making $60-$80k in late 20s seems pretty low.

Many of those jobs are in locations with insane real estate prices. That is why the salaries are so high.

These kinds of jobs exist in the DMV...at least in tech and consulting (not so much finance). Defense companies are paying crazy amounts for new grads in certain fields as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Well...considering 21 year olds that go work for Amazon or Google can make around $200k, or at least start in banking or consulting and make $150k+, etc....making $60-$80k in late 20s seems pretty low.

Many of those jobs are in locations with insane real estate prices. That is why the salaries are so high.

Tthere aren't really that many of those guys in DC anyway. I think of the $60-80K guys as having not gone to grad school yet. They'll come out with a JD and a much better job.

Huh? Don't the JD guys primarily go straight to law school from undergrad...how many are toiling at $60k in their late 20s?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Well...considering 21 year olds that go work for Amazon or Google can make around $200k, or at least start in banking or consulting and make $150k+, etc....making $60-$80k in late 20s seems pretty low.

Many of those jobs are in locations with insane real estate prices. That is why the salaries are so high.

Tthere aren't really that many of those guys in DC anyway. I think of the $60-80K guys as having not gone to grad school yet. They'll come out with a JD and a much better job.

Huh? Don't the JD guys primarily go straight to law school from undergrad...how many are toiling at $60k in their late 20s?

No, in my law school class it was about 40% straight from undergrad and honestly they seemed young. Many people had worked 2-3 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Well...considering 21 year olds that go work for Amazon or Google can make around $200k, or at least start in banking or consulting and make $150k+, etc....making $60-$80k in late 20s seems pretty low.

Many of those jobs are in locations with insane real estate prices. That is why the salaries are so high.

Tthere aren't really that many of those guys in DC anyway. I think of the $60-80K guys as having not gone to grad school yet. They'll come out with a JD and a much better job.

Huh? Don't the JD guys primarily go straight to law school from undergrad...how many are toiling at $60k in their late 20s?

No, in my law school class it was about 40% straight from undergrad and honestly they seemed young. Many people had worked 2-3 years.

Well, that still means they are 23/24 entering law school and finished by their late 20s and earning something much more than $60k-$80k by their late 20s.

[Anonymous]

As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

As a fed worker it could be just about any job from budget analyst to program manager to IT. I’m in Grants and I’m a non-supervisory GS-14.

For non-fed, engineers. DH is a mechanical and structural engineer. He is in the pay range of a mid to upper GS-13.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

Well, it depends on the person's age and desired standard of living, as well as their full financial picture. I think for a man in his late twenties, $60 to $80K is fine. $80 to $100 for early thirties. It also depends if they're in a situation with promotions regularly expected, what their benefits are (federal pension?), and whether they've already been to grad school or do they intend to go and how much will it cost.

But what job do they hold?

I also think your expectations are way lower than what most college-educated women in the DMV expect.

Well, in my office their job title would be Social Science Analyst. They work in federal agencies and the job is to analyze federal policy and finances. Or they work at DOJ as entry level line attorneys or something.

I don't think my expectations are actually that low, I'm just willing to accept a low salary on someone in his late twenties and early thirties because there's growth potential. My DH, for example, has an MPP and was a GS-9 PMF at a second-tier federal agency when we got engaged. He was 28 at that time. Now, 15 years later, he's Senior Executive Service, makes plenty, and is soon to seek a private sector job in the same field as the original agency. I'm a fed as well and make over 100K, so we're comfortable together with our two kids.

The key to marrying is to spot the guys who are on track to hit the sweet spot of making enough money without working terrible hours.

Well...considering 21 year olds that go work for Amazon or Google can make around $200k, or at least start in banking or consulting and make $150k+, etc....making $60-$80k in late 20s seems pretty low.

Many of those jobs are in locations with insane real estate prices. That is why the salaries are so high.

Tthere aren't really that many of those guys in DC anyway. I think of the $60-80K guys as having not gone to grad school yet. They'll come out with a JD and a much better job.

Huh? Don't the JD guys primarily go straight to law school from undergrad...how many are toiling at $60k in their late 20s?

No, in my law school class it was about 40% straight from undergrad and honestly they seemed young. Many people had worked 2-3 years.

Well, that still means they are 23/24 entering law school and finished by their late 20s and earning something much more than $60k-$80k by their late 20s.

You forgot the clerkships. Two clerkships if you want a high earner.

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Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.