Who holds the power in the marriage dating market?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

I agree. Notice the detailed discussion about how a man making $90k is OK, but $80k is not, unless he's in his 20's. And a GS-9 is OK but not a GS-8, etc.

It's like they are shopping for pieces of meat. I've never heard men rate women like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
And you can "enjoy casual dating" all you like, until you're the oldest guy at the bar but you don't realize it yet, and women are looking right through you trying to find someone whose hairline isn't receding yet. Then you can marry someone younger than you and neither one of you will realize it, but she's settling.

The older a man gets, the more options he has. Single women outnumber single men starting around age 30.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

Well, that's a little crass, but I would appreciate the clarity. I would think men who do actually want to be on a marriage trajectory would appreciate the clarity as well. If the suggestion of being married with kids in one's mid-thirties is really that off-putting, that's a red flag to me-- because it's a very normal thing to do!

Men don't need clarity. Most men assume that most women want to get married. Just like most women assume most men want to have sex with them. Making declarations about what you want is pointless. A man who declares that a woman needs to give him sex by the 3rd date likely isn't getting any from any woman, and a woman who declares that she's "not about the games" is unwittingly communicating to men that she's been played by several men and/or has not been deemed worthy of commitment by any of the men she's dealt with.

A lot of people have been seriously hurt in the process of dating. This is a big cause of the non commitment and aggressive behaviors.

I got cheated on when I was 29 with the guy I thought I was going to marry. Starting over on dating at 30 while all of my friends were having kids was dreadful and I was probably not the nicest to the first dates I went on afterwards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women can screen their dates to determine whether they are marriage-minded and ready to commit within their timeframe. You can typically make an educated guess within the first three dates.

+1. And I met my DH at age 21. Even then it was pretty easy to tell he was the marriage and family type and not commitment phobic. We dated 3 years before marriage due to our age, but we began discussing marriage probably after a year or so. I also confessed pretty early on my desire to be a SAHM and he was fine with that too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

3 is a way to get non-Alist guys -- I don't mean type A -- I mean smart, ambitious guys -- they will go for the jobs you do not like. The guys that are left -- what you call the "well enough" guys are a combo of not smart, not serious, have issues that women on DCUM talk about all the time, who in 20 years will never make enough for you. The guys you do not like are the ones that women should target.

Oh please. I'm very happily married to someone who would never want one of those jobs, is plenty smart and serious, makes more than enough money, and is a great and present father. I would be miserable as a BigLaw wife. Ugh.

Why do you think you would be miserable as a BigLaw wife? Just curious - as I am one. Never been miserable. I would be miserable with what I see as the description of Biglaw life that was just not DH's experience.

Because I was a BigLaw associate in 2008 and saw how miserable everyone was and the losses the partners took. Because I really like my kids to have a father who is present and available (not saying yours isn't, it's just not the norm-- or maybe we define those things differently). Because I don't like having to go to events. Because I'm more attracted to guys who are trying to make a difference in the world, as long as they're sensible about it, and I don't really feel the need for that level of money in general.

I was a Biglaw partner in 2008 -- what losses are you talking about? 2008 was a good year -- things happened too late to make a bad year and 2009 was a blow out year because the second half was so great -- what losses did the partners suffer? My DW goes to no events and never has -- I have a lot of time for the kids -- in fact more time in a lot of key ways than my DW -- but I have learned that my experience may not be like others. I never was an associate - clerkships right to Fed with promotions and high impact cases and then to partner.

The financial crisis, widespread layoffs, Heller Ehrman, Thelen, Dewey... Lots of firms lost significant valuation and the partners had to eat the losses. Many associates were shown the door, partners quietly fired or de-equitized, and 2008 grads were given severance and never even started work. Sounds like you avoided it but believe me, it was traumatic.

https://www.businessinsider.com/decades-biggest-law-firm-collapses-2009-12#thacher-proffitt-8

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

I agree. Notice the detailed discussion about how a man making $90k is OK, but $80k is not, unless he's in his 20's. And a GS-9 is OK but not a GS-8, etc.

It's like they are shopping for pieces of meat. I've never heard men rate women like that.

LOLOLOLOL

[Anonymous]

Dating apps make it worse. It makes people feel like you are easily replaceable and it’s probably never been easier to find someone to cheat with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

That’s because you were either bad at sex or awful to be around. Contrary to a prior PP, men don’t need variety in sexual partners, they want to marry a friend that has enthusiastic sex with them. Here’s a test, could any of those boyfriends state that their most fun/interesting sexual experience was with you or your friends? What did you wear for underwear on a daily basis? Were you regularly suggesting using the, um, alternate body locations for sex.

Millions of words spent on this topic, when a rap song from a couple of decades ago wraps it all up succinctly. Men want a lady in the streets and a freak in the bed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

I agree. Notice the detailed discussion about how a man making $90k is OK, but $80k is not, unless he's in his 20's. And a GS-9 is OK but not a GS-8, etc.

It's like they are shopping for pieces of meat. I've never heard men rate women like that.

I find that women are far more picky than they often let on. On the surface, you hear many of the things that are often said on this board. I just want a man who can communicate, a man who is emotionally intelligent, kindness and all that. But if you start to probe beneath the surface, you start hearing about how this guy's job is not that impressive, how that guy is a little too short for their liking, etc. And this is coming from women across the attractiveness spectrum, all of whom appear to be stable and good-hearted. In other words, there are all kinds of regular women who care a great deal about the superficial things, or at least more than they are willing to admit.

Women are human too. And most want a man they can be proud of, which is sometimes tied to more superficial things like job status, height and looks. I'm not judging them for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And you can "enjoy casual dating" all you like, until you're the oldest guy at the bar but you don't realize it yet, and women are looking right through you trying to find someone whose hairline isn't receding yet. Then you can marry someone younger than you and neither one of you will realize it, but she's settling.

The older a man gets, the more options he has. Single women outnumber single men starting around age 30.

Which is why women in their 20s should not be wasting valuable time on casual superficial dating. They need to work on their relationship building skills to meet their match early.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And you can "enjoy casual dating" all you like, until you're the oldest guy at the bar but you don't realize it yet, and women are looking right through you trying to find someone whose hairline isn't receding yet. Then you can marry someone younger than you and neither one of you will realize it, but she's settling.

The older a man gets, the more options he has. Single women outnumber single men starting around age 30.

Which is why women in their 20s should not be wasting valuable time on casual superficial dating. They need to work on their relationship building skills to meet their match early.

It’s easier said than done. Relationship building skills are difficult when it hard to find men who want relationships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

I agree. Notice the detailed discussion about how a man making $90k is OK, but $80k is not, unless he's in his 20's. And a GS-9 is OK but not a GS-8, etc.

It's like they are shopping for pieces of meat. I've never heard men rate women like that.

I find that women are far more picky than they often let on. On the surface, you hear many of the things that are often said on this board. I just want a man who can communicate, a man who is emotionally intelligent, kindness and all that. But if you start to probe beneath the surface, you start hearing about how this guy's job is not that impressive, how that guy is a little too short for their liking, etc. And this is coming from women across the attractiveness spectrum, all of whom appear to be stable and good-hearted. In other words, there are all kinds of regular women who care a great deal about the superficial things, or at least more than they are willing to admit.

Women are human too. And most want a man they can be proud of, which is sometimes tied to more superficial things like job status, height and looks. I'm not judging them for that.

Listen, how can a woman even show her full sexual potential while dating causally? I don't take in different h..s if the guy didn't show me his STD test, and is non-committal, sorry. Men want to hook up with different women: sure, but you get only wrapped PIV for that, bro!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And you can "enjoy casual dating" all you like, until you're the oldest guy at the bar but you don't realize it yet, and women are looking right through you trying to find someone whose hairline isn't receding yet. Then you can marry someone younger than you and neither one of you will realize it, but she's settling.

The older a man gets, the more options he has. Single women outnumber single men starting around age 30.

Which is why women in their 20s should not be wasting valuable time on casual superficial dating. They need to work on their relationship building skills to meet their match early.

It’s easier said than done. Relationship building skills are difficult when it hard to find men who want relationships.

i agree with that. My mom who is 72 is very regretful she wasted so many years dating post divorce in her 30s. She says, now she knows that time simply wasted on missing the men, crying for them. The time she could have spent instead on her self- actualization and career

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And you can "enjoy casual dating" all you like, until you're the oldest guy at the bar but you don't realize it yet, and women are looking right through you trying to find someone whose hairline isn't receding yet. Then you can marry someone younger than you and neither one of you will realize it, but she's settling.

The older a man gets, the more options he has. Single women outnumber single men starting around age 30.

Which is why women in their 20s should not be wasting valuable time on casual superficial dating. They need to work on their relationship building skills to meet their match early.

Most women I know that are single are in husband hunting mode. The only time they do casual is after a break up. Going to singles events, hovering around at cocktail bars just trying to find a guy who is single. If you go to a singles event most of the time it’s going to be majority women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why men or women delay marriage and go through several relationships without committing is because societal changes. It's acceptable or rather a norm now, it wasn't until 70's.

Yea because prior to the seventies few women went to college.
People married very young: there isn’t time to have several relationships when you marry at 19 like my mom who couldn’t ever afford college. She’d also have never been able to move.
Kids go college, meet new people,
Move to new cities.
They’re constantly meetind new people and are matting a decade
Later than my mom did. You’re comparing apples to oranges, I think.