Who holds the power in the marriage dating market?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

I'm perfectly capable of enjoying casual dating, but I also wanted two children, a modest row house, and retirement savings. Those things don't just magically appear, or at least not for everyone. They happen when you exercise some self-discipline and foresight and have a realistic understanding of fertility. I wish it didn't have to be this way, but as long as young men continue to be clueless, this is how it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
…
So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

That’s not how I read your story… more that a woman’s future as a wife and mother depends on luck of timing. Nothing about worthiness!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

Right, I would never say that, because it's a stupid cliche that makes you sound like a reality show contestant. If I thought someone was playing "games" (whatever that means) I'd just break up with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

What makes you think that women must enjoy casual dating ? For me, O begins after 1-3 months of exclusive committed relationship. I cant O when I don’t feel safe /know he’s sticking it casually into many women.
It’s not control - it’s how women are wired, we seek stability whereby men seek variety . Everlasting conflict of interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

Women on average do not enjoy casual sex (aka dating) and also have real time constraints on child bearing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

And you can "enjoy casual dating" all you like, until you're the oldest guy at the bar but you don't realize it yet, and women are looking right through you trying to find someone whose hairline isn't receding yet. Then you can marry someone younger than you and neither one of you will realize it, but she's settling.

For some people, casual dating gets boring-- or was never really that fun anyway-- and they're ready to move on to a phase of life where they're trying to build something lasting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

Women on average do not enjoy casual sex (aka dating) and also have real time constraints on child bearing.

I would rather not deal with the IVF and Geriatric pregnancy issues in my 40s. There is a very loud minority of women who do casual sex, most aren’t into it.

[Anonymous]

The OP is clearly a man and not a "late 30s woman."

A woman's power in the marriage market comes down to how rare she is compared to the men she wants.

A super beautiful 36-37 yo woman has less leverage than she did at 26-27 but still has quite a bit relative to men her age and a lot relative to men 10 years older. I find that these women often have a combination of serious personality deficiencies and unrealistic standards that keep them single. However, if they're able to resolve these issues, they have no problem at all landing a reasonably attractive, well-adjusted and successful man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

PP is overestimating how much women enjoy casually dating him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

What makes you think that women must enjoy casual dating ? For me, O begins after 1-3 months of exclusive committed relationship. I cant O when I don’t feel safe /know he’s sticking it casually into many women.
It’s not control - it’s how women are wired, we seek stability whereby men seek variety . Everlasting conflict of interest.

Not always. I know extremely beautiful women who can't settle down because they have too many options. Even into their late 30s/early 40s. Beauty is a form of power and people (women included) can become power drunk. They are used to dealing with a variety of high status men and connected men and it's often difficult to give that up for Mr. Steady Eddie. Sometimes it comes down to how badly she wants children but even then she might be tempted by more attractive during her marriage as long as her looks keep attracting those men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

To me, women aren’t saying this out of rejection, but exhaustion from dealing with low commitment men and cheaters. Obviously it’s not good to scare men off or come off abrasive, but deep down most women are thinking it. If you don’t know what you want and can’t be faithful or committed, please leave me alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

Women often run off normally-adjusted men by placing arbitrary timelines on commitment. It's best to sniff out signs of seriousness/non-seriousness by observing a man's actions, but a lot of women think they can avoid time wasters by making statements like "I don't have time to waste" or "I'm tired of the games. I need someone serious who's marriage-minded." While that might seem like a winning strategy to the woman since she believes she's scaring off the non-committal men, it's often scaring off the men who are marriage-minded but don't want someone who reeks of desperation. And the bonus here is that saying "I don't have time to waste" won't stop men from lying to you and wasting your time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say any of those things. I just made it known to my friends in general that I envision myself married with two kids in my mid-thirties. Anyone who was uncomfortable with this was not someone I would date at all. And-- key point-- I was saying this in my mid-twenties, so it wasn't like I was trying to drag anyone down the aisle. I was just saying I wanted to... live a very normal life!

I'm all for watching their behavior as well. But it's important to offload anyone who shows you, in any way, that he's not serious. There's no need for an ultimatum, a timeline, etc. Those are not helpful because I don't want to marry someone who had to be ultimatumed into it. Just break up with him if you're not both working towards marriage.

Sure but some women shoot themselves in the foot with the "I don't have time for games" comments. It makes you look crazy and signals to the man that you've been rejected over and over again. Now he's wondering "What's the matter with her?" Women think they're protecting themselves by making these declarations when all they do is scare off the actual good guys. The players are not the least be deterred by them and often ratchet up the lies and fake affection when they hear those words.

What exactly is so scary about it though?

It's not "scary" in the way that Spielbergs' Jaws is scary. Off-putting is probably a better word. Just imagine if you were on a date and a man said "Hey, I don't have time to waste, so I need to know if you are putting out by our 5th date or not." I suspect that any interest you had in putting out would suddenly evaporate with those words. It's no different for men when women declare that they "are not about the games" or "do not have time to waste."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women control sex, men control marriage. Women can do whatever they want with their bodies, however when there is a lot of sex available without commitment, marriage has a lower value to men.

I think this is a generalization that doesn't hold true. Most men want to get married and have kids. And most of them do before they're even 35.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a man, my impression is that there is such an undercurrent of control seeking behavior by many of the posters in this thread.

Just driven women, who can’t organically enjoy casual dating, but are heat-seeking-missile focused on finding the tallest, richest mate, who would then most likely be pushy wives in the marriage.

Women on average do not enjoy casual sex (aka dating) and also have real time constraints on child bearing.

Some women tolerate it out of loneliness or desperation or deep down hope it leads to a relationship.