Lessons in masculinity: Jordan Peterson vs. Tim Walz

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am so happy that Harris picked Walz, and more so every time I see him speak.

The way he paused his rally to call for assistance for a person suffering heat illness in the crowd? Then he used it as a teaching moment to urge listeners to care for one another, to help our neighbors.

Whatever our religious or political beliefs, we are all just walking each other home. That’s what life is. Trump has for years banged the drum of division and fearmongering, and his junior varsity VP nominee is a mynah bird of negativity; Walz leads with joy and love, a message of lifting all boats together.

The Harris/Walz ticket has great potential to heal us from this very ugly era we have endured. And yes Coach Walz is a great role models for all kinds of kids and adults as well.

"we are all just walking each other home "- Could be PMS, but this made me tear up

Yes agreed that waltz should be americas dad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

lol are we really going to do this? I can agree that being a decent man is generally unrelated to how you vote. But Jordan Peterson is an off-putting weirdo who appears obsessed with what other people do and say. He is NOT a decent, dad-like, salt-of-the-earth guy’s guy, and that is self-evident to all! that doesn’t mean he doesn’t sometimes say or write worthwhile things but overall … he’s extremely offputting and that is why women do not like him.

I saw Jordan Peterson on Bill Maher mansplain to a Black woman panelist (I forget who) about how she should raise her children. He not so subtly put her down and offered advice she did ask for. His comments struck me as very sexist. He is a philosophy professor who got some traction and now thinks he should pontificate about life. Enough. He's not unique in this way. It happens to many people who get successful. Also, I'm sick of hearing about how bad things are for men and giving these fringe influencers so much attention. Most men are doing okay as are most women. There is too much emphasis on gender differences and the use of ideas like how paleo people lived ( I mean, who the heck really knows and why is it at all relevant in 2024?) or biological arguments.

I don’t mean to say this as an insult but Jordan Peterson has some fairly severe mental health issues but apparently zero insight into how these impact his interpretation of interpersonal relationships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

lol are we really going to do this? I can agree that being a decent man is generally unrelated to how you vote. But Jordan Peterson is an off-putting weirdo who appears obsessed with what other people do and say. He is NOT a decent, dad-like, salt-of-the-earth guy’s guy, and that is self-evident to all! that doesn’t mean he doesn’t sometimes say or write worthwhile things but overall … he’s extremely offputting and that is why women do not like him.

I saw Jordan Peterson on Bill Maher mansplain to a Black woman panelist (I forget who) about how she should raise her children. He not so subtly put her down and offered advice she did ask for. His comments struck me as very sexist. He is a philosophy professor who got some traction and now thinks he should pontificate about life. Enough. He's not unique in this way. It happens to many people who get successful. Also, I'm sick of hearing about how bad things are for men and giving these fringe influencers so much attention. Most men are doing okay as are most women. There is too much emphasis on gender differences and the use of ideas like how paleo people lived ( I mean, who the heck really knows and why is it at all relevant in 2024?) or biological arguments.

I don’t mean to say this as an insult but Jordan Peterson has some fairly severe mental health issues but apparently zero insight into how these impact his interpretation of interpersonal relationships.

I think it’s all an act to get fame and money. Same as Slavoj Zizek on the far left. Yuck.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, I think the term many are grasping for in this debate of masculinity is safety, and what is true safety in the masculine.

To me, I recognize safety in Tim Walz because he does hold the “masculine” traits of hunting, military etc but has an emotional maturity that allows him to use these traits to provide physical and emotional safety to himself and others. A key facet of safety is the ability to listen to others and really care about their position and situation.

Men who have not matured to that level are historically pretty terrifying. Men are bigger. This has always been something that can either be scary or protective for women and children.

It’s such a relief to see this kind of integrated safety in a man in a public forum. I hope that it does inspire others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, I think the term many are grasping for in this debate of masculinity is safety, and what is true safety in the masculine.

To me, I recognize safety in Tim Walz because he does hold the “masculine” traits of hunting, military etc but has an emotional maturity that allows him to use these traits to provide physical and emotional safety to himself and others. A key facet of safety is the ability to listen to others and really care about their position and situation.

Men who have not matured to that level are historically pretty terrifying. Men are bigger. This has always been something that can either be scary or protective for women and children.

It’s such a relief to see this kind of integrated safety in a man in a public forum. I hope that it does inspire others.

+1000. My husband is a guy's guy and a mixed martial artist and listens to Joe Rogan and yet has much, much more in common with Walz than Trump/Vance. Because he was raised with an understanding that the man's role is not to be worshipped and feared in his family but rather to provide stability and safety.

[Anonymous]

Walz comes from a different era. Young men today are lonely and real or not, basically feel shut out of the dating pool unless they're in the top ten percent of attractiveness on the apps.

[Anonymous]

<3

[Anonymous]

Watch him on the stump with the sound off. He has freakish mannerisms like he’s not comfortable in his own skin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

lol are we really going to do this? I can agree that being a decent man is generally unrelated to how you vote. But Jordan Peterson is an off-putting weirdo who appears obsessed with what other people do and say. He is NOT a decent, dad-like, salt-of-the-earth guy’s guy, and that is self-evident to all! that doesn’t mean he doesn’t sometimes say or write worthwhile things but overall … he’s extremely offputting and that is why women do not like him.

I saw Jordan Peterson on Bill Maher mansplain to a Black woman panelist (I forget who) about how she should raise her children. He not so subtly put her down and offered advice she did ask for. His comments struck me as very sexist. He is a philosophy professor who got some traction and now thinks he should pontificate about life. Enough. He's not unique in this way. It happens to many people who get successful. Also, I'm sick of hearing about how bad things are for men and giving these fringe influencers so much attention. Most men are doing okay as are most women. There is too much emphasis on gender differences and the use of ideas like how paleo people lived ( I mean, who the heck really knows and why is it at all relevant in 2024?) or biological arguments.

I don’t mean to say this as an insult but Jordan Peterson has some fairly severe mental health issues but apparently zero insight into how these impact his interpretation of interpersonal relationships.

What I loathe about people like Peterson is they are substance abusers who then attempt to call others weak. I don't think someone who has had as many issues as him should be so arrogant and lacking in humility and introspection considering their own weaknesses, especially attacking/lecturing people who never had the problems he had. You don't get to be an a$$hole to others when you were a drug abuser and many of us weren't as weak as you were. And I'm not attacking people who have had drug issues and then cleaned themselves up, I'm specifically addressing the ones who've been addicts and then become d-bags when after multiple times in rehab, you finally got control of your life. Good for you, but you're the f*** up, so don't talk to me like I ever did it.

[Anonymous]

Ironically, Jordan does not subscribe to his own toxic masculinity nonsense in his personal life. When his wife got ill with a rare cancer, he disappeared from public life and quit working to become her full-time caregiver for over a year. He became addicted to pills due to the trauma of her getting sick. He also defers to his daughter on all business affairs. She's the one who got him into the carnivore "diet" that he was shilling to Elon Musk. Obviously he's a terrible person, I just think it's funny that he doesn't even believe or live this he-man stuff himself.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s great that he talks openly about how he got addicted to pills and struggled to come off them. If you listen to him her certainly says strange stuff —but 80 percent of what he says is compelling, funny and accessible.

I see the draw. I see why he has an audience. And people love self help guidance bc it’s self directed.

- lefty with lefty bona fides , young side Gen X

[Anonymous]

Walz reminds me of my own Dad. My Dad's a former military doctor, so he's a combo of traditionally masculine (taught us target shooting) and caring (went to all my plays, took me out to get ice cream when I went through my first brrakup). It seems like my model of Dad is sadly lacking these days, but Walz is a good example of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, Jordan does not subscribe to his own toxic masculinity nonsense in his personal life. When his wife got ill with a rare cancer, he disappeared from public life and quit working to become her full-time caregiver for over a year. He became addicted to pills due to the trauma of her getting sick. He also defers to his daughter on all business affairs. She's the one who got him into the carnivore "diet" that he was shilling to Elon Musk. Obviously he's a terrible person, I just think it's funny that he doesn't even believe or live this he-man stuff himself.

I don’t think you understand what Jordan Peterson talks about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Walz comes from a different era. Young men today are lonely and real or not, basically feel shut out of the dating pool unless they're in the top ten percent of attractiveness on the apps.

Or height and net worth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am so happy that Harris picked Walz, and more so every time I see him speak.

The way he paused his rally to call for assistance for a person suffering heat illness in the crowd? Then he used it as a teaching moment to urge listeners to care for one another, to help our neighbors.

Whatever our religious or political beliefs, we are all just walking each other home. That’s what life is. Trump has for years banged the drum of division and fearmongering, and his junior varsity VP nominee is a mynah bird of negativity; Walz leads with joy and love, a message of lifting all boats together.

The Harris/Walz ticket has great potential to heal us from this very ugly era we have endured. And yes Coach Walz is a great role models for all kinds of kids and adults as well.

"we are all just walking each other home "- Could be PMS, but this made me tear up

Yes agreed that waltz should be americas dad

Yet as governor during covid, he instituted a hotline for people to snitch on their neighbors violating "social distancing guidelines." So yeah walk them home, but then drop a dime on them?

Yeah, because if your neighbors called the hotline, someone would stop by and remind you about the COVID guidelines. Walz asked that people be issued citations rather than actually fined.

For the first six month of the pandemic, which was as long as the hotline was in place. And we were all trying to figure out how best to handle things.

I suspect you're about to announce, with the benefit of hindsight, that some of those decisions turned out to be wrong. Congratulations. If you can learn from your mistakes, prove it by voting for Harris, not Trump. And not casting some self-indulgent protest vote.