Lessons in masculinity: Jordan Peterson vs. Tim Walz

[Anonymous]

Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know what compelled you to post this here, OP, because the onslaught of incel trolls is coming 😅but I couldn’t agree with you more.

The Waltzes are an actual middle class, exemplary family, and they will sweep the floor with XY Vance or whatever his name is.

[Anonymous]

I could not agree with you more.

[Anonymous]

Yes, there have been multiple articles about his being masculine without being toxic.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, he reminds me of lots of actual good dads I know. My husband is like this, minus serving in the military. (His brothers did to pay for college, but he did not want to make that commitment.) He loves playing the piano and he's a tech nerd by trade but he can also go out and build stuff and fix stuff. He was an eagle scout. He also loves art. He tells our child he loves them all the time. He understands women have periods. He has....oh my god....a sensitive side! He looks like could kick someone's ass, but would actually be unlikely to escalate into fighting someone because he recognizes it is stupid.

I can think of lots of crappy dads I know, but I can also think of at least 5 off the top of my head who have similar qualities to my husband. And all are Democrats....not that I'm saying there aren't Republican men like this. I just don't run with that crowd.

So, a question I have is WHY all these young men are so seduced into Jordan Peterson kind of stuff. Is it coming from their own fathers? Or is it that they don't have good fatherly influences in their lives? Because I really think there are way more men who are closer to Tim Walz or at least WANT to be than Jordan Peterson, and that is really not about political parties at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, he reminds me of lots of actual good dads I know. My husband is like this, minus serving in the military. (His brothers did to pay for college, but he did not want to make that commitment.) He loves playing the piano and he's a tech nerd by trade but he can also go out and build stuff and fix stuff. He was an eagle scout. He also loves art. He tells our child he loves them all the time. He understands women have periods. He has....oh my god....a sensitive side! He looks like could kick someone's ass, but would actually be unlikely to escalate into fighting someone because he recognizes it is stupid.

I can think of lots of crappy dads I know, but I can also think of at least 5 off the top of my head who have similar qualities to my husband. And all are Democrats....not that I'm saying there aren't Republican men like this. I just don't run with that crowd.

So, a question I have is WHY all these young men are so seduced into Jordan Peterson kind of stuff. Is it coming from their own fathers? Or is it that they don't have good fatherly influences in their lives? Because I really think there are way more men who are closer to Tim Walz or at least WANT to be than Jordan Peterson, and that is really not about political parties at all.

This is pretty much my husband. I feel very very lucky.

[Anonymous]

I am so happy that Harris picked Walz, and more so every time I see him speak.

The way he paused his rally to call for assistance for a person suffering heat illness in the crowd? Then he used it as a teaching moment to urge listeners to care for one another, to help our neighbors.

Whatever our religious or political beliefs, we are all just walking each other home. That’s what life is. Trump has for years banged the drum of division and fearmongering, and his junior varsity VP nominee is a mynah bird of negativity; Walz leads with joy and love, a message of lifting all boats together.

The Harris/Walz ticket has great potential to heal us from this very ugly era we have endured. And yes Coach Walz is a great role models for all kinds of kids and adults as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, he reminds me of lots of actual good dads I know. My husband is like this, minus serving in the military. (His brothers did to pay for college, but he did not want to make that commitment.) He loves playing the piano and he's a tech nerd by trade but he can also go out and build stuff and fix stuff. He was an eagle scout. He also loves art. He tells our child he loves them all the time. He understands women have periods. He has....oh my god....a sensitive side! He looks like could kick someone's ass, but would actually be unlikely to escalate into fighting someone because he recognizes it is stupid.

I can think of lots of crappy dads I know, but I can also think of at least 5 off the top of my head who have similar qualities to my husband. And all are Democrats....not that I'm saying there aren't Republican men like this. I just don't run with that crowd.

So, a question I have is WHY all these young men are so seduced into Jordan Peterson kind of stuff. Is it coming from their own fathers? Or is it that they don't have good fatherly influences in their lives? Because I really think there are way more men who are closer to Tim Walz or at least WANT to be than Jordan Peterson, and that is really not about political parties at all.

I wondered if maybe my husband had a secret life since you're describing him....then I realized he's not a fix-it guy so we're good. And it means there are more than one smart, sensitive, piano-playing, tech professional, art-loving, openly affectionate men who are masculine and unafraid to be everything a Walz is -- and to abhor everything a Peterson is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

So true. Young men need better role models, I hope TW becomes one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

Your comparing what women want to what young boys want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

[Anonymous]

My late dad got involved with the incel wing of the Catholic church before his death. There are a lot of these activists within Catholicism who share common ground with people like Jordan Peterson and I teach a lot of Christian students who seem really enamored of Jordan Peterson and for a long time I just didn't get it. But I think that Peterson offers kind of like an apology or set of justifications for guys who either were mean cruel fathers or who had mean cruel fathers. Maybe it's easier to say that Dad was 'exercising leadership' when he beat you, rather than having to deal with the pain of knowing that he abused you. Maybe it's better to say that you are exercising leadership in your home than admit that your wife hates you or is afraid of you or is only there because she's afraid to leave. Even after my father's death, the most my mother will say is that my father was 'very strict' when in actuality he was cruel enough psychologically that all of us basically left home for college at 18 and never looked back, moving thousands of miles away and not visiting for years at a time. It's easier to say that Tim Waltz is a pussy than it is to admit that you messed up and your wife and kids hate you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My late dad got involved with the incel wing of the Catholic church before his death. There are a lot of these activists within Catholicism who share common ground with people like Jordan Peterson and I teach a lot of Christian students who seem really enamored of Jordan Peterson and for a long time I just didn't get it. But I think that Peterson offers kind of like an apology or set of justifications for guys who either were mean cruel fathers or who had mean cruel fathers. Maybe it's easier to say that Dad was 'exercising leadership' when he beat you, rather than having to deal with the pain of knowing that he abused you. Maybe it's better to say that you are exercising leadership in your home than admit that your wife hates you or is afraid of you or is only there because she's afraid to leave. Even after my father's death, the most my mother will say is that my father was 'very strict' when in actuality he was cruel enough psychologically that all of us basically left home for college at 18 and never looked back, moving thousands of miles away and not visiting for years at a time. It's easier to say that Tim Waltz is a pussy than it is to admit that you messed up and your wife and kids hate you.

Yup

[Anonymous]

I agree with OP’s point. I don’t know how the right managed to co-opt the idea of masculinity the way they did. I know lots and lots of guys who can fix things around the house, are athletic, and also care about the environment and women’s rights.

The guys on the right, like Donald Trump Jr, are just fake posers.