Lessons in masculinity: Jordan Peterson vs. Tim Walz

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My late dad got involved with the incel wing of the Catholic church before his death. There are a lot of these activists within Catholicism who share common ground with people like Jordan Peterson and I teach a lot of Christian students who seem really enamored of Jordan Peterson and for a long time I just didn't get it. But I think that Peterson offers kind of like an apology or set of justifications for guys who either were mean cruel fathers or who had mean cruel fathers. Maybe it's easier to say that Dad was 'exercising leadership' when he beat you, rather than having to deal with the pain of knowing that he abused you. Maybe it's better to say that you are exercising leadership in your home than admit that your wife hates you or is afraid of you or is only there because she's afraid to leave. Even after my father's death, the most my mother will say is that my father was 'very strict' when in actuality he was cruel enough psychologically that all of us basically left home for college at 18 and never looked back, moving thousands of miles away and not visiting for years at a time. It's easier to say that Tim Waltz is a pussy than it is to admit that you messed up and your wife and kids hate you.

I think this is the appeal of Trump as well. If you're standing next to the guy who's making fun of the disabled person, you can laugh and be part of the group. You have affiliation and safety (until he turns on you but you can keep kissing his ass and hoping to remain in good graces, like his sons do). I noticed at Trump's rallies in 2016 he ended them by reassuring people that everything is going to be great and he repeatedly says, "I love you!" to the crowds. I remember thinking that he was like a father to them and they were dying for that: the authoritarian father from whom they could feel love along with group affiliation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

I specifically said in my first post that I think there are plenty of men who are Republicans who are also good dads. I’m not sure I would agree it’s those guys who are into Jordan Peterson, though.

It didn't end with the 12 rules stuff. He is another one who also wants regressive roles for women. It's not enough for these guys to want to help young.men. They have to demean women too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

I specifically said in my first post that I think there are plenty of men who are Republicans who are also good dads. I’m not sure I would agree it’s those guys who are into Jordan Peterson, though.

It didn't end with the 12 rules stuff. He is another one who also wants regressive roles for women. It's not enough for these guys to want to help young.men. They have to demean women too.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

I've worked for social media agencies that handled content + strategy for both these guys (among MANY other alpha male influencers). I also dated a guy 15 years ago who is now an alpha male influencer.

They all have pretty much the same path. They start by posting the benign, "clean your room"-style advice (maybe fitness, business, etc) but start to figure out that by saying controversial, polarizing things, they get more attention which leads to more money. Over time they start saying and believing crazier and crazier things. They also start to develop massive amounts of anxiety and mental illness, because their entire business structure is based on getting attention on social media, and when that attention wanes, they freak out and become even MORE extreme.

It's sad to see, because a lot start off genuinely wanting to help people, and there's a sort of downward spiral. Even sadder are the millions of boys and men who end up caught up in this and adopt those beliefs as their own - which becomes its own vicious cycle, because as they become more extreme, they become more isolated from friends and family, so they go even deeper into the online world.

If those men & boys saw what I saw, they'd snap out of it in a heartbeat. It's all fake. When guys are surrounded by gorgeous women - those women are all hired. Many don't make nearly as much money as they claim to, or they got their money from daddy. They all struggle with depression and anxiety. I had one cry to me because he knows that nobody in his life - not women, not friends - actually care about HIM.

Being a character on social media really messes with your brain. BAD.

Spot on. Their egos are inflated. They are those people who think that because they are smart and succeed in one field they are experts at everything and their opinions should always be taken seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

Yes, hence the example of Mitt Romney. I disagree with his views on economics and his religion is not my cup of tea, but he’s clearly an upstanding, secure and empathetic guy and probably a good dad and role model for some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

I've worked for social media agencies that handled content + strategy for both these guys (among MANY other alpha male influencers). I also dated a guy 15 years ago who is now an alpha male influencer.

They all have pretty much the same path. They start by posting the benign, "clean your room"-style advice (maybe fitness, business, etc) but start to figure out that by saying controversial, polarizing things, they get more attention which leads to more money. Over time they start saying and believing crazier and crazier things. They also start to develop massive amounts of anxiety and mental illness, because their entire business structure is based on getting attention on social media, and when that attention wanes, they freak out and become even MORE extreme.

It's sad to see, because a lot start off genuinely wanting to help people, and there's a sort of downward spiral. Even sadder are the millions of boys and men who end up caught up in this and adopt those beliefs as their own - which becomes its own vicious cycle, because as they become more extreme, they become more isolated from friends and family, so they go even deeper into the online world.

If those men & boys saw what I saw, they'd snap out of it in a heartbeat. It's all fake. When guys are surrounded by gorgeous women - those women are all hired. Many don't make nearly as much money as they claim to, or they got their money from daddy. They all struggle with depression and anxiety. I had one cry to me because he knows that nobody in his life - not women, not friends - actually care about HIM.

Being a character on social media really messes with your brain. BAD.

PP Have you thought about writing about this and including specific examples? I bet it would be interesting to the population at large. I would read a four page article on this in any weekly magazine - Time, Economist, NYT Mag, you could adapt the content to any of the above and more. It’s completely fascinating and damaging to society and the economy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am so happy that Harris picked Walz, and more so every time I see him speak.

The way he paused his rally to call for assistance for a person suffering heat illness in the crowd? Then he used it as a teaching moment to urge listeners to care for one another, to help our neighbors.

Whatever our religious or political beliefs, we are all just walking each other home. That’s what life is. Trump has for years banged the drum of division and fearmongering, and his junior varsity VP nominee is a mynah bird of negativity; Walz leads with joy and love, a message of lifting all boats together.

The Harris/Walz ticket has great potential to heal us from this very ugly era we have endured. And yes Coach Walz is a great role models for all kinds of kids and adults as well.

I love this. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

OP, I don’t know whether this piece inspired your post, but it spoke to me:

https://wapo.st/3WDSbT8

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

I've worked for social media agencies that handled content + strategy for both these guys (among MANY other alpha male influencers). I also dated a guy 15 years ago who is now an alpha male influencer.

They all have pretty much the same path. They start by posting the benign, "clean your room"-style advice (maybe fitness, business, etc) but start to figure out that by saying controversial, polarizing things, they get more attention which leads to more money. Over time they start saying and believing crazier and crazier things. They also start to develop massive amounts of anxiety and mental illness, because their entire business structure is based on getting attention on social media, and when that attention wanes, they freak out and become even MORE extreme.

It's sad to see, because a lot start off genuinely wanting to help people, and there's a sort of downward spiral. Even sadder are the millions of boys and men who end up caught up in this and adopt those beliefs as their own - which becomes its own vicious cycle, because as they become more extreme, they become more isolated from friends and family, so they go even deeper into the online world.

If those men & boys saw what I saw, they'd snap out of it in a heartbeat. It's all fake. When guys are surrounded by gorgeous women - those women are all hired. Many don't make nearly as much money as they claim to, or they got their money from daddy. They all struggle with depression and anxiety. I had one cry to me because he knows that nobody in his life - not women, not friends - actually care about HIM.

Being a character on social media really messes with your brain. BAD.

Spot on. Their egos are inflated. They are those people who think that because they are smart and succeed in one field they are experts at everything and their opinions should always be taken seriously.

This applies to Walz too. His ego is way, way inflated. He just has views that you agree with so don’t see it. Good marketing and PR don’t hurt either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The only think I think of with the MN guy is Teachers Union and what a joke k-12 in public schools are, how terrible common core is, too much testing a year, homeroom teachers who don’t know math, everyone cycling through overpaid Admin roles to juice their unsustainable retirement benefits, and teachers unions throwing around $$$$billions as a political super PAC to elect liberals to pay themselves more benefits.

[Anonymous]

Is Jordan peterson that Canadian psychologist?

[Anonymous]

I think the toxic masculinity route appeals to adolescent boys because the pretty adolescent girls seem more likely to be attracted to guys who fit that mold.

[Anonymous]

I heard it described as toxic masculinity versus tonic masculinity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

I specifically said in my first post that I think there are plenty of men who are Republicans who are also good dads. I’m not sure I would agree it’s those guys who are into Jordan Peterson, though.

It didn't end with the 12 rules stuff. He is another one who also wants regressive roles for women. It's not enough for these guys to want to help young.men. They have to demean women too.

The problem here is Trump and his followers are not Republicans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

I've worked for social media agencies that handled content + strategy for both these guys (among MANY other alpha male influencers). I also dated a guy 15 years ago who is now an alpha male influencer.

They all have pretty much the same path. They start by posting the benign, "clean your room"-style advice (maybe fitness, business, etc) but start to figure out that by saying controversial, polarizing things, they get more attention which leads to more money. Over time they start saying and believing crazier and crazier things. They also start to develop massive amounts of anxiety and mental illness, because their entire business structure is based on getting attention on social media, and when that attention wanes, they freak out and become even MORE extreme.

It's sad to see, because a lot start off genuinely wanting to help people, and there's a sort of downward spiral. Even sadder are the millions of boys and men who end up caught up in this and adopt those beliefs as their own - which becomes its own vicious cycle, because as they become more extreme, they become more isolated from friends and family, so they go even deeper into the online world.

If those men & boys saw what I saw, they'd snap out of it in a heartbeat. It's all fake. When guys are surrounded by gorgeous women - those women are all hired. Many don't make nearly as much money as they claim to, or they got their money from daddy. They all struggle with depression and anxiety. I had one cry to me because he knows that nobody in his life - not women, not friends - actually care about HIM.

Being a character on social media really messes with your brain. BAD.

Exactly this, Elon is another example of this. Now he's hating on his own kid in public. Ridiculous people, these freaking influencers and like.

A lot of Elon’s weird behavior is because he’s on the spectrum. He sees things in a very black-and-white way and will tell it like it is, or at least how he sees it. He has no understanding of how his actions impact other people, but as a result of being on the spectrum.