Lessons in masculinity: Jordan Peterson vs. Tim Walz

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

Np here- people don't quibble with those notions, but rather his overall message outside of those 'rules' that is not inclusive or empathetic. And I would certainly not characterize him as kind or not taking himself seriously. He also has the vague aura of a narcissist. I think Romney believes in service as does Walz, who has lived that out his whole live. It is a refreshing change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

I've worked for social media agencies that handled content + strategy for both these guys (among MANY other alpha male influencers). I also dated a guy 15 years ago who is now an alpha male influencer.

They all have pretty much the same path. They start by posting the benign, "clean your room"-style advice (maybe fitness, business, etc) but start to figure out that by saying controversial, polarizing things, they get more attention which leads to more money. Over time they start saying and believing crazier and crazier things. They also start to develop massive amounts of anxiety and mental illness, because their entire business structure is based on getting attention on social media, and when that attention wanes, they freak out and become even MORE extreme.

It's sad to see, because a lot start off genuinely wanting to help people, and there's a sort of downward spiral. Even sadder are the millions of boys and men who end up caught up in this and adopt those beliefs as their own - which becomes its own vicious cycle, because as they become more extreme, they become more isolated from friends and family, so they go even deeper into the online world.

If those men & boys saw what I saw, they'd snap out of it in a heartbeat. It's all fake. When guys are surrounded by gorgeous women - those women are all hired. Many don't make nearly as much money as they claim to, or they got their money from daddy. They all struggle with depression and anxiety. I had one cry to me because he knows that nobody in his life - not women, not friends - actually care about HIM.

Being a character on social media really messes with your brain. BAD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

Np here- people don't quibble with those notions, but rather his overall message outside of those 'rules' that is not inclusive or empathetic. And I would certainly not characterize him as kind or not taking himself seriously. He also has the vague aura of a narcissist. I think Romney believes in service as does Walz, who has lived that out his whole live. It is a refreshing change.

But nobody’s message is inclusive and empathetic to EVERYONE. Everybody has to define an outgroup or there is no point to any group.

By definition, virtually every single politician on the planet is a narcissist. I mean, to enter politics, you literally have to look in the mirror and say to yourself “you know, things would be better if I was in charge.” And then you’re going to put your family through the misery of political service. TW, Harris, Biden, Trump, Vance, Obama, Bush (both), Gore … all of them are narcissists. So what’s the difference between them and Peterson?

This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. If you like TW’s politics (and there is much to appreciate) then you’ll rationalize that he is a virtuous. If you like Vance’s, you’ll conclude he is the kind and empathetic one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

You might want to have a word with some of the Vice President's advisors. As reported in the Wall Street Journal, "Some close to Harris viewed Walz, a former high-school teacher and football coach, as similar to 'Coach Taylor,' the main character in the popular TV show 'Friday Night Lights.'" Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/tim-walz-behind-kamala-harris-vp-pick-4681685e

[Anonymous]

I think it’s deranged to look at political candidates, celebrities, influencers and other public strangers as potential romantic ideals or sexual identity role models or engage in wish-you-were-my-dadism, no matter what side of the aisle they fall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

I've worked for social media agencies that handled content + strategy for both these guys (among MANY other alpha male influencers). I also dated a guy 15 years ago who is now an alpha male influencer.

They all have pretty much the same path. They start by posting the benign, "clean your room"-style advice (maybe fitness, business, etc) but start to figure out that by saying controversial, polarizing things, they get more attention which leads to more money. Over time they start saying and believing crazier and crazier things. They also start to develop massive amounts of anxiety and mental illness, because their entire business structure is based on getting attention on social media, and when that attention wanes, they freak out and become even MORE extreme.

It's sad to see, because a lot start off genuinely wanting to help people, and there's a sort of downward spiral. Even sadder are the millions of boys and men who end up caught up in this and adopt those beliefs as their own - which becomes its own vicious cycle, because as they become more extreme, they become more isolated from friends and family, so they go even deeper into the online world.

If those men & boys saw what I saw, they'd snap out of it in a heartbeat. It's all fake. When guys are surrounded by gorgeous women - those women are all hired. Many don't make nearly as much money as they claim to, or they got their money from daddy. They all struggle with depression and anxiety. I had one cry to me because he knows that nobody in his life - not women, not friends - actually care about HIM.

Being a character on social media really messes with your brain. BAD.

Exactly this, Elon is another example of this. Now he's hating on his own kid in public. Ridiculous people, these freaking influencers and like.

[Anonymous]

Walz just seems like a normal person and it is refreshing to see someone like him

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

The bolded is the key, and I simply think you’re wrong. Most women are not looking for the enlisted/NCO/public school teacher/football coach. Those men will overwhelmingly trend right and being married to three of those categories is objectively hard and the fourth one (teacher) presents financial challenges (although it isn’t as demanding on the family).

The reason why young men follow Tate, Peterson and the others is because those influencers offer young men paradigms that fit the lived experience of those men (whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant). TW won’t speak to those men.

And not for nothing, Mitt Romney met a lot of your criteria and he was labeled a racist. People remember that.

I think the point is not the specifics of what Walz does/did for a living. It is that he did things we tend to think of as stereotypically male but he seems to still have empathy and kindness and not take himself too seriously.

FWIW, I am a Dem, but I liked Mitt Romney as a person. He seemed like a decent guy. I don't recall people I know calling him racist.

You’re fighting q caricature? A lot of the men you disagree with politically do have empathy, kindness and don’t take themselves too seriously, but it manifests in ways you don’t agree with.

I mean, precisely which of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life do you find offensive?

I specifically said in my first post that I think there are plenty of men who are Republicans who are also good dads. I’m not sure I would agree it’s those guys who are into Jordan Peterson, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s deranged to look at political candidates, celebrities, influencers and other public strangers as potential romantic ideals or sexual identity role models or engage in wish-you-were-my-dadism, no matter what side of the aisle they fall.

I disagree. There are millions of young men out there who are absorbing these images and notions of toxic (fake) masculinity demonstrated by the alt-right - and they will eventually have families. It is extremely concerning to me. I have 3 boys and one of them is definitely very influenced - and before you blame ME (because moms get the blame here) I am constantly working to counter this influence. It definitely doesn't help that their dad is oblivious.

[Anonymous]

Jordan Peterson is far from masculine. He’s more of a whiny bit#h.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of this as TikTok has blown up over the last few days about “America’s Dad” as the new VP contender. Though it’s hard not to get tangled up in the obvious politics of it all, I really do see Tim Walz as the positive counter-example to the “masculinity crisis” and the problem with young men needing better role models.

For the last decade, a lot of lonely young men have turned to pseudo-intellectuals and influencers like Jordan Peterson (or worse, Andrew Tate) for guidance on how to be a man. What started with a benign but not exactly groundbreaking advice to “clean your room,” Jordan Peterson has ultimately steered young men towards online incel-dom, offering a veneer of bootstrap-style self-betterment advice but actually blaming everyone else (namely, women, non-traditional lifestyles, atheists, liberals, LGBTQ people, or whatever the hell cultural Marxism is) for his own insecurities. He gets really emotional over weird things yet claims to be this father figure to help young men set themselves right, when he is clearly… not alright.

VP contender Tim Walz is exactly the opposite. Of course I don’t personally know the guy or his non-public family situation, I’m going on public persona and vibes here: this is how you be a secure, masculine man. Be capable of all the traditionally manly stuff (hunting, fixing cars, serving in the military, football, what have you) while not being all hung up about women’s menstrual products and supporting women’s aspirations. Serving your community and being a good Dad. Being positive, funny, and laughing at yourself. You don’t even have to like his politics, but his version of masculinity is what most women want.

Too many young men think that they have to choose between Andrew Tate and Soy Boy, or that allowing others to live their lives the way they choose to somehow threatens their own masculinity.

Anyways, since politics is too polarizing, there needs to be more examples of all-American, positive masculine role models for young men, to want to be capable grown men who serve their country and want to be good Dads.

I've worked for social media agencies that handled content + strategy for both these guys (among MANY other alpha male influencers). I also dated a guy 15 years ago who is now an alpha male influencer.

They all have pretty much the same path. They start by posting the benign, "clean your room"-style advice (maybe fitness, business, etc) but start to figure out that by saying controversial, polarizing things, they get more attention which leads to more money. Over time they start saying and believing crazier and crazier things. They also start to develop massive amounts of anxiety and mental illness, because their entire business structure is based on getting attention on social media, and when that attention wanes, they freak out and become even MORE extreme.

It's sad to see, because a lot start off genuinely wanting to help people, and there's a sort of downward spiral. Even sadder are the millions of boys and men who end up caught up in this and adopt those beliefs as their own - which becomes its own vicious cycle, because as they become more extreme, they become more isolated from friends and family, so they go even deeper into the online world.

If those men & boys saw what I saw, they'd snap out of it in a heartbeat. It's all fake. When guys are surrounded by gorgeous women - those women are all hired. Many don't make nearly as much money as they claim to, or they got their money from daddy. They all struggle with depression and anxiety. I had one cry to me because he knows that nobody in his life - not women, not friends - actually care about HIM.

Being a character on social media really messes with your brain. BAD.

I was just reading a thread the other day on Reddit where younger guys were talking about how Peterson spoke to their feelings and problems and they felt like the advice in the early days really helped. But they all saw that he changed and went down the route that you describe. It is an unfortunate reality that social media “engagement” rules all.

[Anonymous]

I can't wait for February!

[Anonymous]

Waltz sounds like a decent guy who has devoted himself to his community and then to public service. I may not agree with him on some key issues but I’d like to have him as a neighbor. He trump Trump and Vance by a long shot.

[Anonymous]

I see a loud mouthed bully (strutted around while closing schools and shuttering businesses) who thinks way to highly of himself given his cowardice.

Wait until the stories from his coaching tenure come out.