Minimum math at TJ

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a way to determine if DC is ready for TJ Math? does TJ provide an assessment or self evaluation tool that DC can use to decide if they are ready for TJ Math?

Do they get A's in math consistently and view getting them as pretty simple to do? If so, they have a good shot at doing well in TJ math. It's for kids who get math quickly and don't tend to struggle with most math concepts

Is there a online timed test that DC can take to determine their math readiness for TJ? It sounds like A in middle school math is not a reliable indicator.

DP. I would say with retakes and with SBG that grades don't really mean anything, positive or negative. Do you know your DC? I know that one of mine is good at math and the other one isn't. Their grades don't have much to do with it.

Sure, I know my DC. But if neither parents have math/science background, is there a way to determine if DC's math level is sufficient to be successful at TJ? There is plenty discussion here about how TJ kids struggle with mental stress, lack of sleep, play constant catch-up trying to get out of Cs & Ds, etc. If DC is not ready to do regular (not honors/advanced) TJ math with ease, it doesnt make sense to put them through the stress and convince them it's ok to be at the bottom of the class.

Yes it’s more stress and work but constant lack of sleep and Cs/Ds haven’t been DC’s experience so far. She is doing the typical track there (started with RS and Math3 in 9th) not the extra advanced one though so maybe that plays a role?

DC in same classes, no extra or advanced. Can you suggest a TJ Math 3 tutor? Dont want to wait until last few weeks of the semester, like last time, and struggle to find a tutor who knew RS1 specific content

A "TJ Math 3" tutor LOL.

Spoon feeding your child wont help things. Have them talk to their teacher if they are having trouble. The teacher will recommend next steps such as 8th period help, extra resources to read and problems to work on, etc.

8th period got Math 3 help is a Math 3 tutor, pal

[Anonymous]

I am assuming the post that said “They said that regular math in FCPS would be enough” was removed because of the racist bit at the front of it but wanted to say this…

I do think kids who have not been taking enrichment in math can do well at TJ. I do think that a kid who tests into Algebra 1 in 7th grade is a kid who has a better understanding of math and is more naturally inclined to pick up math concepts quickly. I don’t think it matters what MS you are at, if you tested into algebra 1 H in 7th grade, 91st percentile on the IAAT and Pass Advanced on SOL, then you probably have the ability to do well at TJ.

I don’t think kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade are in the same boat. I think those are smart kids who are ahead but they most likely are not picking up concepts as quickly and easily as the kids who tested into the class in 7th grade. I think allowing kids with Algebra 1 only into TJ is a mistake. I don’t think it serves those kids well but is in place to increase the number of URMs attending TJ. The SOL numbers I looked at point to at least 6 MS that probably would not have kids eligible for TJ if Geometry is required.

But a decent number of kids did participate in enrichment of some sort. DS is at RSM and really likes it. He is there because he likes math and wants to be challenged. He loves the math competition class and participating in math competitions. I would guess that a good number of the kids who are succeeding at TJ are kids who love math and enjoy the challenge. The kids who can do well but maybe are getting Bs and Cs are kids who are good at math but less passionate about math. They can do the work and figure it out but it feels more like a chore.

I don’t like the quant test because it gave a huge advantage to kids who did participate in enrichment because they were used to taking those type of tests and playing with math. And I don’t think it is fair that kids who have parents with the money and knowledge of the programs hav a huge leg up on a public good. Kids who are strong in math can do well in TJ but it is not a guarantee that it will be easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am assuming the post that said “They said that regular math in FCPS would be enough” was removed because of the racist bit at the front of it but wanted to say this…

I do think kids who have not been taking enrichment in math can do well at TJ. I do think that a kid who tests into Algebra 1 in 7th grade is a kid who has a better understanding of math and is more naturally inclined to pick up math concepts quickly. I don’t think it matters what MS you are at, if you tested into algebra 1 H in 7th grade, 91st percentile on the IAAT and Pass Advanced on SOL, then you probably have the ability to do well at TJ.

I don’t think kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade are in the same boat. I think those are smart kids who are ahead but they most likely are not picking up concepts as quickly and easily as the kids who tested into the class in 7th grade. I think allowing kids with Algebra 1 only into TJ is a mistake. I don’t think it serves those kids well but is in place to increase the number of URMs attending TJ. The SOL numbers I looked at point to at least 6 MS that probably would not have kids eligible for TJ if Geometry is required.

But a decent number of kids did participate in enrichment of some sort. DS is at RSM and really likes it. He is there because he likes math and wants to be challenged. He loves the math competition class and participating in math competitions. I would guess that a good number of the kids who are succeeding at TJ are kids who love math and enjoy the challenge. The kids who can do well but maybe are getting Bs and Cs are kids who are good at math but less passionate about math. They can do the work and figure it out but it feels more like a chore.

I don’t like the quant test because it gave a huge advantage to kids who did participate in enrichment because they were used to taking those type of tests and playing with math. And I don’t think it is fair that kids who have parents with the money and knowledge of the programs hav a huge leg up on a public good. Kids who are strong in math can do well in TJ but it is not a guarantee that it will be easy.

+1 to all this.
I wouldn’t send a kid to TJ if they weren’t in Algebra in 7th; a sizable chunk of the kids there were in Algebra in 6th so being in Algebra in 8th is a much more narrow path of options.

And I too am glad the old system is gone (new one’s not perfect tho) since it heavily preferences those who: 1) did outside test prep classes or outside math classes at least to supplement and 2) had math EC in MS - not all MSs offered those.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am assuming the post that said “They said that regular math in FCPS would be enough” was removed because of the racist bit at the front of it but wanted to say this…

I do think kids who have not been taking enrichment in math can do well at TJ. I do think that a kid who tests into Algebra 1 in 7th grade is a kid who has a better understanding of math and is more naturally inclined to pick up math concepts quickly. I don’t think it matters what MS you are at, if you tested into algebra 1 H in 7th grade, 91st percentile on the IAAT and Pass Advanced on SOL, then you probably have the ability to do well at TJ.

I don’t think kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade are in the same boat. I think those are smart kids who are ahead but they most likely are not picking up concepts as quickly and easily as the kids who tested into the class in 7th grade. I think allowing kids with Algebra 1 only into TJ is a mistake. I don’t think it serves those kids well but is in place to increase the number of URMs attending TJ. The SOL numbers I looked at point to at least 6 MS that probably would not have kids eligible for TJ if Geometry is required.

But a decent number of kids did participate in enrichment of some sort. DS is at RSM and really likes it. He is there because he likes math and wants to be challenged. He loves the math competition class and participating in math competitions. I would guess that a good number of the kids who are succeeding at TJ are kids who love math and enjoy the challenge. The kids who can do well but maybe are getting Bs and Cs are kids who are good at math but less passionate about math. They can do the work and figure it out but it feels more like a chore.

I don’t like the quant test because it gave a huge advantage to kids who did participate in enrichment because they were used to taking those type of tests and playing with math. And I don’t think it is fair that kids who have parents with the money and knowledge of the programs hav a huge leg up on a public good. Kids who are strong in math can do well in TJ but it is not a guarantee that it will be easy.

Six entire FCPS middle schools are being deprived of basic grade-level math education, yet the proposed solution is to potentially force one or two students into TJ bottom tier, that too hoping less-informed parents would take the bait?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am assuming the post that said “They said that regular math in FCPS would be enough” was removed because of the racist bit at the front of it but wanted to say this…

I do think kids who have not been taking enrichment in math can do well at TJ. I do think that a kid who tests into Algebra 1 in 7th grade is a kid who has a better understanding of math and is more naturally inclined to pick up math concepts quickly. I don’t think it matters what MS you are at, if you tested into algebra 1 H in 7th grade, 91st percentile on the IAAT and Pass Advanced on SOL, then you probably have the ability to do well at TJ.

I don’t think kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade are in the same boat. I think those are smart kids who are ahead but they most likely are not picking up concepts as quickly and easily as the kids who tested into the class in 7th grade. I think allowing kids with Algebra 1 only into TJ is a mistake. I don’t think it serves those kids well but is in place to increase the number of URMs attending TJ. The SOL numbers I looked at point to at least 6 MS that probably would not have kids eligible for TJ if Geometry is required.

But a decent number of kids did participate in enrichment of some sort. DS is at RSM and really likes it. He is there because he likes math and wants to be challenged. He loves the math competition class and participating in math competitions. I would guess that a good number of the kids who are succeeding at TJ are kids who love math and enjoy the challenge. The kids who can do well but maybe are getting Bs and Cs are kids who are good at math but less passionate about math. They can do the work and figure it out but it feels more like a chore.

I don’t like the quant test because it gave a huge advantage to kids who did participate in enrichment because they were used to taking those type of tests and playing with math. And I don’t think it is fair that kids who have parents with the money and knowledge of the programs hav a huge leg up on a public good. Kids who are strong in math can do well in TJ but it is not a guarantee that it will be easy.

Six entire FCPS middle schools are being deprived of basic grade-level math education, yet the proposed solution is to potentially force one or two students into TJ bottom tier, that too hoping less-informed parents would take the bait?

I would guess that the ES feeding into the MS are Title 1 schools. Those are schools that are receiving more money per student then other schools. The classroom size is smaller in K-3. The AAP score requirements are lower.

I would argue that those schools have an issue because the parents do not focus on their kids education. The parents are probably not reading to their kids as infants/toddlers/younger kids. The parents are not playing math games or doing activities that teach numbers, letters, sounds, shapes, colors, and the like. The kids are arriving at school with no academic foundation and are starting behind their peers who come from households where parents are doing all of the things listed above.

The schools can only do so much. If they child goes home with a book to read to the parents or have the parents read to them and the parent doesn’t, that is not the schools fault. Asking the schools to try and make up for 5-6 years of a lack of academic stimulation is asking them to move mountains.

Free pre-K exists for these families but many choose not to participate. After school programs exist for these kids but many choose not to participate. Free summer school and summer programs exist for these kids but many choose not to participate. I am not sure what else you think we can do or should do. That is why there are 6 MS with not enough kids to have kids in Algebra 1 H in 7th grade. Stop blaming the schools and the parents who work with their kids for the failings of the parents of the kids who are behind.

[Anonymous]

No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, I know my DC. But if neither parents have math/science background, is there a way to determine if DC's math level is sufficient to be successful at TJ? There is plenty discussion here about how TJ kids struggle with mental stress, lack of sleep, play constant catch-up trying to get out of Cs & Ds, etc. If DC is not ready to do regular (not honors/advanced) TJ math with ease, it doesnt make sense to put them through the stress and convince them it's ok to be at the bottom of the class.

Go to a Kumon center and ask them to give DC a placement test in math. Those used to be no cost, but even if there is a modest cost, have DC take that test, and learn where Kumon thinks the student’s math skills really are. That will NOT be a perfect measure, but it would be a reasonably objective metric without any “grade inflation”. (Kumon will teach students at very high math levels, including more advanced Calculus.). Then decide for yourself if TJ is a good fit.

Regardless, please understand that many TJ students (and other FCPS students doing well in math) have had years and years of outside math supplementing (from AoPS, Kumon, Mathnasium, or RSM) to get them prepped for TJ. It is common for this to start by 3rd or 4th grade, and some kids start earlier than that. Supplementing for years is not required, and is not what FCPS wants to hear, but it sure does help.

We took DC to Curie. They require a placement test which gives a good idea of child's math level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a way to determine if DC is ready for TJ Math? does TJ provide an assessment or self evaluation tool that DC can use to decide if they are ready for TJ Math?

Algebra H in 8th grade with a 3.5 grade is the minimum.

I will not encourage my child to apply unless he has an A in Algebra 1 H and Geometry when he is in 8th grade. I am aware that he can have less then that to apply but I don't see anything less then that as being a good fit for TJ. But that is my opinion and above the threshold for an application right now.

Plenty of kids who were in Algebra 1 H in 8th grade have proven to be great fits for TJ.

Do you think these kids would have struggled if they were in 7th grade algebra and 8th grade geometry, or 8th grade algebra+geometry (PP's suggested standard)? If not, your comment doesn't strictly counter the PP's comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?