Minimum math at TJ

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?

I just looked up Class of 2008... >60% of students admtted were taking Algebra in 8th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?

I just looked up Class of 2008... >60% of students admtted were taking Algebra in 8th.

It was much harder to take Algebra in 7th back then. In the Class of 2008, 60% of the kids lacked the acceleration, but had the raw aptitude. It's not surprising that those kids would be successful at TJ, especially since they did have to show math ability through the TJ test and through earning As in much less grade-inflated coursework.

Nowadays, the bar is quite low for qualifying for Algebra in 7th in FCPS. Kids who fail to meet that low bar aren't especially talented in math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

You really think that TJ runs a whole class Math 1+2 Geometry, dedicated to students who all gong to drop out? Every year? Really? As a cruel joke on kids who took Algebra in 8th?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

You really think that TJ runs a whole class Math 1+2 Geometry, dedicated to students who all gong to drop out? Every year? Really? As a cruel joke on kids who took Algebra in 8th?

How many students who were enrolled in TJ Math 1 last year did not return to their base school? Is there even one student? It's cruel to mislead innocent students and forcibly enroll them in the TJ calculus progression path when they have been deprived of the preparation they rightfully deserve in the algebra path at their middle school. 3/4 of the entire middle school said they were not taught algebra 1 HN - is this not cruel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
How many students who were enrolled in TJ Math 1 last year did not return to their base school? Is there even one student?

Yes. There are a lot of students. Over 100 students. I doubt 20% of the class returned to base school. More likely TJ just changed their class allocation to accommodate the larger number of students in Math 1. Less demand for the physics and multivariable calculus and linear algebra in a few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?

I just looked up Class of 2008... >60% of students admtted were taking Algebra in 8th.

It was much harder to take Algebra in 7th back then. In the Class of 2008, 60% of the kids lacked the acceleration, but had the raw aptitude. It's not surprising that those kids would be successful at TJ, especially since they did have to show math ability through the TJ test and through earning As in much less grade-inflated coursework.

Nowadays, the bar is quite low for qualifying for Algebra in 7th in FCPS. Kids who fail to meet that low bar aren't especially talented in math.

Yeah, no. The bar is not low to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. There would be a lot more students taking it if the bar was low. There are not that many 6th graders taking Algebra 1 and I think it worked out to about 15% of the 7th graders end up in Algebra 1 in 7th grade. I don't know what the path to Algebra 1 in 7th looked like in the early 2000's or even 2010's. I do know that Algebra in 8th was considered advanced through the late 1990's, so I can only imagine that the move to more kids taking Algebra in 7th grade is something that happened in the last 15 years.

And there is a real difference between math talent and math exposure. We were watching a documentary on one of the US International Math Teams and one of the contestants said that he didn't get interested in math until 7th grade. He earned a gold medal at the international competition, the one that comes out of the AMC12. I doubt you would say that he was not talented in math. Different kids come into abilities at different times.

My only issue with the Algebra 1 in 8th grade requirement is that it seems to me that the kids who were taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade will not have the time to take the advanced math classes and sciences classes that TJ offers. It has nothing to do with a lack of talent or ability. It could be that the kids from underrepresented schools who take Algebra 1 in 8th grade thrive in the TJ environment because they are surrounded by peers that are driven by academics and that gives those students a peer group they have never had before.

I see TJ as a unique opportunity for kids to take advantage of unique classes and offerings that they will not find at their base school. I don't see the kids as being untalented or "bad" at math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?

I just looked up Class of 2008... >60% of students admtted were taking Algebra in 8th.

It was much harder to take Algebra in 7th back then. In the Class of 2008, 60% of the kids lacked the acceleration, but had the raw aptitude. It's not surprising that those kids would be successful at TJ, especially since they did have to show math ability through the TJ test and through earning As in much less grade-inflated coursework.

Nowadays, the bar is quite low for qualifying for Algebra in 7th in FCPS. Kids who fail to meet that low bar aren't especially talented in math.

Yeah, no. The bar is not low to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. There would be a lot more students taking it if the bar was low. There are not that many 6th graders taking Algebra 1 and I think it worked out to about 15% of the 7th graders end up in Algebra 1 in 7th grade. I don't know what the path to Algebra 1 in 7th looked like in the early 2000's or even 2010's. I do know that Algebra in 8th was considered advanced through the late 1990's, so I can only imagine that the move to more kids taking Algebra in 7th grade is something that happened in the last 15 years.

And there is a real difference between math talent and math exposure. We were watching a documentary on one of the US International Math Teams and one of the contestants said that he didn't get interested in math until 7th grade. He earned a gold medal at the international competition, the one that comes out of the AMC12. I doubt you would say that he was not talented in math. Different kids come into abilities at different times.

My only issue with the Algebra 1 in 8th grade requirement is that it seems to me that the kids who were taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade will not have the time to take the advanced math classes and sciences classes that TJ offers. It has nothing to do with a lack of talent or ability. It could be that the kids from underrepresented schools who take Algebra 1 in 8th grade thrive in the TJ environment because they are surrounded by peers that are driven by academics and that gives those students a peer group they have never had before.

I see TJ as a unique opportunity for kids to take advantage of unique classes and offerings that they will not find at their base school. I don't see the kids as being untalented or "bad" at math.

has any Algebra 1 student who entered TJ continued beyond freshman year without dropping out? I ask this because I was told almost all peers would be a year or two ahead in math, and student would get frustrated not being able to catch up to them, even doing first year projects. It is not that Algebra 1 student is not talented, it's that their middle school has not taught what they were supposed to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

You really think that TJ runs a whole class Math 1+2 Geometry, dedicated to students who all gong to drop out? Every year? Really? As a cruel joke on kids who took Algebra in 8th?

How many students who were enrolled in TJ Math 1 last year did not return to their base school? Is there even one student? It's cruel to mislead innocent students and forcibly enroll them in the TJ calculus progression path when they have been deprived of the preparation they rightfully deserve in the algebra path at their middle school. 3/4 of the entire middle school said they were not taught algebra 1 HN - is this not cruel?

It's cruel, and it's not just one school but there are six of them where kids are being deprived of basic 8th grade math education, and covering it up by falsely claiming lowering the TJ admissions math level is the fix.

[Anonymous]

FCPS has been releasing less information about the level of math of incoming students over time, not sure how FCAG got the numbers for classes of 2020 and 2021, maybe FOIA?

But yeah, there were less-and-less kids admitted with only Algebra 1 in 8th with that downward trend as far back as 2005 at least (when class of 2009 was applying) along with a significant increase in the proportion of kids who are post-Geometry in 8th. I'm not sure how much of this is due to changes in FCPS policies/instruction that enabled kids to reach higher math sooner vs. a shift in culture of parents enabling their kids moving forward in math faster through outside enrichment or summer studies (not taking a position on whether the latter is a good or bad thing, but seems FCPS is attempting to discourage so much emphasis on such practices by not tying that advancement so closely to TJ admission chances).

TJ Admitted students who took Algebra 1 in 8th
----
Class of 2008: 61%
Class of 2009: 56%
Class of 2010: 43%
Class of 2011: 41%
Class of 2012: 26%
Class of 2013: 17%
Class of 2014: 21%
Class of 2015: 14%
Class of 2016: --%
Class of 2017: --%
Class of 2018: --%
Class of 2019: --%
Class of 2020: 07%
Class of 2021: 04%
Class of 2022: --%
Class of 2023: --%
Class of 2024: --%
Class of 2025: --%
Class of 2026: --%
Class of 2027: --%

TJ Admitted students who took math beyond Geometry in 8th
----
Class of 2008: 06%
Class of 2009: 07%
Class of 2010: 08%
Class of 2011: 06%
Class of 2012: 07%
Class of 2013: 09%
Class of 2014: 10%
Class of 2015: 14%
Class of 2016: --%
Class of 2017: --%
Class of 2018: --%
Class of 2019: --%
Class of 2020: 29%
Class of 2021: 35%
Class of 2022: --%
Class of 2023: --%
Class of 2024: --%
Class of 2025: --%
Class of 2026: --%
Class of 2027: --%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?

I just looked up Class of 2008... >60% of students admtted were taking Algebra in 8th.

It was much harder to take Algebra in 7th back then. In the Class of 2008, 60% of the kids lacked the acceleration, but had the raw aptitude. It's not surprising that those kids would be successful at TJ, especially since they did have to show math ability through the TJ test and through earning As in much less grade-inflated coursework.

Nowadays, the bar is quite low for qualifying for Algebra in 7th in FCPS. Kids who fail to meet that low bar aren't especially talented in math.

Yeah, no. The bar is not low to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. There would be a lot more students taking it if the bar was low. There are not that many 6th graders taking Algebra 1 and I think it worked out to about 15% of the 7th graders end up in Algebra 1 in 7th grade. I don't know what the path to Algebra 1 in 7th looked like in the early 2000's or even 2010's. I do know that Algebra in 8th was considered advanced through the late 1990's, so I can only imagine that the move to more kids taking Algebra in 7th grade is something that happened in the last 15 years.

And there is a real difference between math talent and math exposure. We were watching a documentary on one of the US International Math Teams and one of the contestants said that he didn't get interested in math until 7th grade. He earned a gold medal at the international competition, the one that comes out of the AMC12. I doubt you would say that he was not talented in math. Different kids come into abilities at different times.

My only issue with the Algebra 1 in 8th grade requirement is that it seems to me that the kids who were taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade will not have the time to take the advanced math classes and sciences classes that TJ offers. It has nothing to do with a lack of talent or ability. It could be that the kids from underrepresented schools who take Algebra 1 in 8th grade thrive in the TJ environment because they are surrounded by peers that are driven by academics and that gives those students a peer group they have never had before.

I see TJ as a unique opportunity for kids to take advantage of unique classes and offerings that they will not find at their base school. I don't see the kids as being untalented or "bad" at math.

There are about 14,000 kids per FCPS grade level. If 15% qualify for Algebra in 7th, that is around 2100 kids. Only around 350 FCPS kids are admitted to TJ. There are 6 times as many FCPS kids taking Algebra I in 7th than there are FCPS TJ spots. AAP and advanced math are both available across the county, with reduced requirements to get admitted for lower SES kids. Every kid in AAP and advanced math is taught the material that would be needed to qualify for 7th grade Algebra. There is no need to admit kids who weren't ready for Algebra in 7th.

[Anonymous]

Periodic reminder that the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is not the Thomas Jefferson High School for Math, Algorithmic Computer Science, and Theoretical Physics.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?

I just looked up Class of 2008... >60% of students admtted were taking Algebra in 8th.

It was much harder to take Algebra in 7th back then. In the Class of 2008, 60% of the kids lacked the acceleration, but had the raw aptitude. It's not surprising that those kids would be successful at TJ, especially since they did have to show math ability through the TJ test and through earning As in much less grade-inflated coursework.

Nowadays, the bar is quite low for qualifying for Algebra in 7th in FCPS. Kids who fail to meet that low bar aren't especially talented in math.

Yeah, no. The bar is not low to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. There would be a lot more students taking it if the bar was low. There are not that many 6th graders taking Algebra 1 and I think it worked out to about 15% of the 7th graders end up in Algebra 1 in 7th grade. I don't know what the path to Algebra 1 in 7th looked like in the early 2000's or even 2010's. I do know that Algebra in 8th was considered advanced through the late 1990's, so I can only imagine that the move to more kids taking Algebra in 7th grade is something that happened in the last 15 years.

And there is a real difference between math talent and math exposure. We were watching a documentary on one of the US International Math Teams and one of the contestants said that he didn't get interested in math until 7th grade. He earned a gold medal at the international competition, the one that comes out of the AMC12. I doubt you would say that he was not talented in math. Different kids come into abilities at different times.

My only issue with the Algebra 1 in 8th grade requirement is that it seems to me that the kids who were taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade will not have the time to take the advanced math classes and sciences classes that TJ offers. It has nothing to do with a lack of talent or ability. It could be that the kids from underrepresented schools who take Algebra 1 in 8th grade thrive in the TJ environment because they are surrounded by peers that are driven by academics and that gives those students a peer group they have never had before.

I see TJ as a unique opportunity for kids to take advantage of unique classes and offerings that they will not find at their base school. I don't see the kids as being untalented or "bad" at math.

has any Algebra 1 student who entered TJ continued beyond freshman year without dropping out? I ask this because I was told almost all peers would be a year or two ahead in math, and student would get frustrated not being able to catch up to them, even doing first year projects. It is not that Algebra 1 student is not talented, it's that their middle school has not taught what they were supposed to.

You think that near 100 kids, based ont he estimates that I have heard on this board, have dropped out of TJ before sophomore year? Wasn't 21-22 the first year the accepted kids without the Quant test? There is a jump in the FARMs rate that year. The decline in freshmen to sophomores was 9 kids. I know that they admit some sophomores each year but I doubt that they admitted 100 sophomores or 50 or whatever number of kids hadn't had Geometry in 21-22. I'll worry about things if I look at that page and there are under 500 kids in the sophomore or junior classes.

https://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13:::NO:0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID,P0_EDSL:300,0

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:No one is forcing kids from those schools to attend TJ. They are offered a spot because they meet the new requirements. Those kids can choose to take that spot or not. It looks like not all of the seats that are set aside are taken from those schools.

Doesn't the new requirement of needing just Algebra 1 H in 8th grade set them up to fail or be at the absolute bottom at TJ? When that same kid could be in top 1.5% at their base high school and gain a UVA like spot?

I think it is a mistake, I have no idea how the kids at TJ who have completed Algebra 1 in 8th grade are doing. I would not be comfortable sending my kid to TJ with only Algebra 1.

It could be that the kids coming from the non-traditional TJ schools are more driven and are not the kids struggling who only have Algebra 1. Since Algebra 1 H is harder to attain given their backgrounds, getting there required more perseverance and grit thent he kids are used to working harder to get to their end goal.

In my mind, a kid entering TJ with only Algebra 1 H is a kid who is not going to have the opportunity to take the more advanced math classes and science classes, which is the point of attending TJ. But that is my bias.

Why mislead students by promoting an inaccurate admissions policy that suggests Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade is sufficient? Wouldn't setting the bar at Geometry provide students with a clear target to aim for, encouraging them to plan for higher-level math courses starting from earlier grades?

No, because most kids (and families) don't even have this on their radar in 3rd or 4th (seems if you aren't on track to take Algebra in 7th and want to try to plan to hit that target, you'd want a few years lead time to work towards it). Setting that bar basically is an indirect way of excluding kids from environments where their early childhood education didn't set them on a glide path for Algebra in 7th, regardless of their innate intellectual/academic capacity.

Also to a prior poster, perhaps the objective for many students is to have the 4 years worth of HS environment and academics/peers that TJ provides. That is an end in itself, and may be more valuable to them than the perceived prestige of whatever undergrad institution they can enroll in. Not everyone would agree that being top of class at base school is preferable to being bottom 50% of class at TJ.

How many peers would a student entering with Algebra 1 in 8th grade find at TJ? Is there a single such student who has completed freshman without returning to base school?

It used to be single digit number of students, but now it is over 100 each year.

In the late 90s and early 2000s it was half the class?

I just looked up Class of 2008... >60% of students admtted were taking Algebra in 8th.

It was much harder to take Algebra in 7th back then. In the Class of 2008, 60% of the kids lacked the acceleration, but had the raw aptitude. It's not surprising that those kids would be successful at TJ, especially since they did have to show math ability through the TJ test and through earning As in much less grade-inflated coursework.

Nowadays, the bar is quite low for qualifying for Algebra in 7th in FCPS. Kids who fail to meet that low bar aren't especially talented in math.

Yeah, no. The bar is not low to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. There would be a lot more students taking it if the bar was low. There are not that many 6th graders taking Algebra 1 and I think it worked out to about 15% of the 7th graders end up in Algebra 1 in 7th grade. I don't know what the path to Algebra 1 in 7th looked like in the early 2000's or even 2010's. I do know that Algebra in 8th was considered advanced through the late 1990's, so I can only imagine that the move to more kids taking Algebra in 7th grade is something that happened in the last 15 years.

And there is a real difference between math talent and math exposure. We were watching a documentary on one of the US International Math Teams and one of the contestants said that he didn't get interested in math until 7th grade. He earned a gold medal at the international competition, the one that comes out of the AMC12. I doubt you would say that he was not talented in math. Different kids come into abilities at different times.

My only issue with the Algebra 1 in 8th grade requirement is that it seems to me that the kids who were taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade will not have the time to take the advanced math classes and sciences classes that TJ offers. It has nothing to do with a lack of talent or ability. It could be that the kids from underrepresented schools who take Algebra 1 in 8th grade thrive in the TJ environment because they are surrounded by peers that are driven by academics and that gives those students a peer group they have never had before.

I see TJ as a unique opportunity for kids to take advantage of unique classes and offerings that they will not find at their base school. I don't see the kids as being untalented or "bad" at math.

has any Algebra 1 student who entered TJ continued beyond freshman year without dropping out? I ask this because I was told almost all peers would be a year or two ahead in math, and student would get frustrated not being able to catch up to them, even doing first year projects. It is not that Algebra 1 student is not talented, it's that their middle school has not taught what they were supposed to.

You think that near 100 kids, based ont he estimates that I have heard on this board, have dropped out of TJ before sophomore year? Wasn't 21-22 the first year the accepted kids without the Quant test? There is a jump in the FARMs rate that year. The decline in freshmen to sophomores was 9 kids. I know that they admit some sophomores each year but I doubt that they admitted 100 sophomores or 50 or whatever number of kids hadn't had Geometry in 21-22. I'll worry about things if I look at that page and there are under 500 kids in the sophomore or junior classes.

https://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13:::NO:0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID,P0_EDSL:300,0

Nice try, but you are incorrect. It was not 100, not even close. Out of 529 admitted in 2021-22, there were 9 kids with Algebra 1, who were tricked into enrolling at TJ, who then returned to base school before start of sophomore, bringing the total down to 520.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FCPS has been releasing less information about the level of math of incoming students over time, not sure how FCAG got the numbers for classes of 2020 and 2021, maybe FOIA?

But yeah, there were less-and-less kids admitted with only Algebra 1 in 8th with that downward trend as far back as 2005 at least (when class of 2009 was applying) along with a significant increase in the proportion of kids who are post-Geometry in 8th. I'm not sure how much of this is due to changes in FCPS policies/instruction that enabled kids to reach higher math sooner vs. a shift in culture of parents enabling their kids moving forward in math faster through outside enrichment or summer studies (not taking a position on whether the latter is a good or bad thing, but seems FCPS is attempting to discourage so much emphasis on such practices by not tying that advancement so closely to TJ admission chances).

TJ Admitted students who took Algebra 1 in 8th
----
Class of 2008: 61%
Class of 2009: 56%
Class of 2010: 43%
Class of 2011: 41%
Class of 2012: 26%
Class of 2013: 17%
Class of 2014: 21%
Class of 2015: 14%
Class of 2016: --%
Class of 2017: --%
Class of 2018: --%
Class of 2019: --%
Class of 2020: 07%
Class of 2021: 04%
Class of 2022: --%
Class of 2023: --%
Class of 2024: --%
Class of 2025: --%
Class of 2026: --%
Class of 2027: --%

TJ Admitted students who took math beyond Geometry in 8th
----
Class of 2008: 06%
Class of 2009: 07%
Class of 2010: 08%
Class of 2011: 06%
Class of 2012: 07%
Class of 2013: 09%
Class of 2014: 10%
Class of 2015: 14%
Class of 2016: --%
Class of 2017: --%
Class of 2018: --%
Class of 2019: --%
Class of 2020: 29%
Class of 2021: 35%
Class of 2022: --%
Class of 2023: --%
Class of 2024: --%
Class of 2025: --%
Class of 2026: --%
Class of 2027: --%

I think that dramatic shift toward very far acceleration in ways mainly achievable outside of school or only in a handful of MSs speaks to why the test was scrapped and new process created. I think it’s good that kids can follow the options available throughout FCPS and still qualify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, I know my DC. But if neither parents have math/science background, is there a way to determine if DC's math level is sufficient to be successful at TJ? There is plenty discussion here about how TJ kids struggle with mental stress, lack of sleep, play constant catch-up trying to get out of Cs & Ds, etc. If DC is not ready to do regular (not honors/advanced) TJ math with ease, it doesnt make sense to put them through the stress and convince them it's ok to be at the bottom of the class.

Go to a Kumon center and ask them to give DC a placement test in math. Those used to be no cost, but even if there is a modest cost, have DC take that test, and learn where Kumon thinks the student’s math skills really are. That will NOT be a perfect measure, but it would be a reasonably objective metric without any “grade inflation”. (Kumon will teach students at very high math levels, including more advanced Calculus.). Then decide for yourself if TJ is a good fit.

Regardless, please understand that many TJ students (and other FCPS students doing well in math) have had years and years of outside math supplementing (from AoPS, Kumon, Mathnasium, or RSM) to get them prepped for TJ. It is common for this to start by 3rd or 4th grade, and some kids start earlier than that. Supplementing for years is not required, and is not what FCPS wants to hear, but it sure does help.

Yep, here comes the Aops/RMS.. booster. I see a pattern similar to other posts; a sockpuppet poster sets up the question then they swoops in and recommends Aops/RMS/etc afterschool math enrichment classes.