Borderline Personality

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah. I don’t know what my agenda is. I don’t think there is much to do to help out narcissists except call them out on an anonymous public forum.

Like I said, the OP isn’t going to go to therapy or admit that they had a role in any of their own problems. But maybe someone else reading this will realize that the OP doesn’t seem to have any empathy for their spouse.

Ok, where are you getting this idea that OP is a narcissist?

Because their spouse got a really difficult diagnosis, and the OP has still made themselves the main character in this story.

I think you should reread the OP

Anonymous wrote:Therapist thinks spouse may have it. Has anyone survived a marriage with this? We have been together 15+ years so even though it explains a lot it’s still a shock. My mind is whirling.

I’m reading this. The OP’s spouse is in therapy and was told they have BPD. There is no mention of how the person with the diagnosis feels about this, only how the OP feels.

Am I missing something?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

It’s not some sort of competition. The description just didn’t sound like narcissism. You can’t just label various things you dislike with various DSM diagnoses.

I am not the first PP here you responded to, but I am the child of a BPD. I don't think of it as a competition, and I'm not saying something is or isn't narcissism. But you are talking about how there are these BPD empaths who are only mean when they are 'triggered'. I dunno I just am having a visceral reaction to someone equating BPD to Autism. I 100% have a personal trauma bias that is causing that visceral reaction though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I am probably more the passive codependent type, much to my chagrin — despite being educated and with my own career. I grew up seeing my mother tolerate my father’s physical abuse and though it infuriated me I guess I didn’t have an example of how to set boundaries.

It also has been exhausting to do so in this relationship. And now I know why.

Thanks to all who posted with their experiences. I’m coming to terms with the fact that I need to be open minded and prepare for all possibilities, including that this will end.

Hugs, OP. It is very hard to reach middle age and to be able to see how you have repeated some of the mistakes your own parents made. I'm the child of a narcissistic dad and a codependent mom (who could be borderline, it's hard to say, I'm not a psychiatrist) and I definitely realized in my mid-30s that many of my own relationships choices mirrored some of those dynamics.

It helps that my DH is not a full blown narcissist like my dad (who is truly incapable of empathy or considering the needs, or even really the existence, of people outside of himself). DH has ADHD and has some narcissistic tendencies, but the main issues tend to be high rigidity and some poor communication skills, especially around feelings. But he's actually been open to working on it, and that makes all the difference. He can recognize when he's being unreasonable and will make an effort to be more flexible. He apologizes when his words are hurtful or when his behavior harms me or our DC, and his apologies are genuine and no effort to manipulate or re-start an abuse cycle (this was not always the case but we've come a long way).

I've also had to do a lot of work on my codependency, learning to both recognize my own needs and assert them. Not just with DH but also with DC -- my mom modeled martyrdom my entire childhood and I have to work not to repeat that pattern.

I think the fact that we are both willing to recognize that the way we were taught to behave in relationships didn't work and we want to do better, makes all the difference. Simply being able to admit you need to work on yourself and being willing to make changes for the benefit of your partner and family unit works against NPD and BPD. So it sounds like you are on a better path, whatever the future brings. Good luck.

OP here. Thanks so much, I really appreciate your post. I am in therapy and working on the codependency.

My DH was more like yours pre COVID. He hit a rough patch during COVID and it has really worsened. I have trouble accepting some days that due to the mental illness he just may not be able to see the impact of his rages and shouting.

He reins it in towards the kids. I am very torn about leaving because it would mean seeing my kids half the time, when they’re still quite young (elementary) and leaving my home which I love. I will need to see how willing he is to accept help but seems like a long road ahead.

Wait…OP, did YOUR therapist diagnose your husband?
And what do you mean that he “doesn’t see the impact?” I have done DBT therapy and treated people with BPD for years, and after an “episode,” people with BPD typically self harm or attempt suicide. That’s why they are in and out of the psych hospital all of the time.

The hallmarks of BPD are fear of abandonment and black and white thinking. They typically have no inner sense of self and don’t trust their own thoughts/emotions because they get so intense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah. I don’t know what my agenda is. I don’t think there is much to do to help out narcissists except call them out on an anonymous public forum.

Like I said, the OP isn’t going to go to therapy or admit that they had a role in any of their own problems. But maybe someone else reading this will realize that the OP doesn’t seem to have any empathy for their spouse.

Ok, where are you getting this idea that OP is a narcissist?

Because their spouse got a really difficult diagnosis, and the OP has still made themselves the main character in this story.

I think you should reread the OP

Anonymous wrote:Therapist thinks spouse may have it. Has anyone survived a marriage with this? We have been together 15+ years so even though it explains a lot it’s still a shock. My mind is whirling.

I’m reading this. The OP’s spouse is in therapy and was told they have BPD. There is no mention of how the person with the diagnosis feels about this, only how the OP feels.

Am I missing something?

It’s pretty obvious from the context that OP’s therapist is speculating that her DH has borderline. And there’s zero in OP’s posts otherwise to suggest she is narcissistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah. I don’t know what my agenda is. I don’t think there is much to do to help out narcissists except call them out on an anonymous public forum.

Like I said, the OP isn’t going to go to therapy or admit that they had a role in any of their own problems. But maybe someone else reading this will realize that the OP doesn’t seem to have any empathy for their spouse.

Ok, where are you getting this idea that OP is a narcissist?

Because their spouse got a really difficult diagnosis, and the OP has still made themselves the main character in this story.

I think you should reread the OP

Anonymous wrote:Therapist thinks spouse may have it. Has anyone survived a marriage with this? We have been together 15+ years so even though it explains a lot it’s still a shock. My mind is whirling.

I’m reading this. The OP’s spouse is in therapy and was told they have BPD. There is no mention of how the person with the diagnosis feels about this, only how the OP feels.

Am I missing something?

It’s pretty obvious from the context that OP’s therapist is speculating that her DH has borderline. And there’s zero in OP’s posts otherwise to suggest she is narcissistic.

I just went back and read more of the thread.
There is nothing in the OP’s post to suggest that either of them have any kind of personality disorder or that they are anything other than a couple that fights a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

Checks out for me -- my mother had BPD and married a narcissist (my stepdad). It was a pretty horrible situation to grow up in.

I actually dug up some research on this. Compared to controls, male partners of BPD women had higher neuroticism levels and lower testosterone. Narcissistic trait differences were apparently not statistically significant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10045094/

It's the stress and lack of sleep from living with a BPD/NPD. My doctor was amazed at how much my numbers improved after I got divorced.

Agree: for family living with someone BPD or really anyone unstable it’s like ongoing trauma or PTSD or Cassandra syndrome. All. The. Time.

You can believe or trust them. You want to. So you try it again. You expect normal behavior but rarely get it. Then you reprogram yourself to be hyper vigilant and Uber independent. And to put up with verbal and emotional abuse. If kids are involved you stay too long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

It’s not some sort of competition. The description just didn’t sound like narcissism. You can’t just label various things you dislike with various DSM diagnoses.

I am not the first PP here you responded to, but I am the child of a BPD. I don't think of it as a competition, and I'm not saying something is or isn't narcissism. But you are talking about how there are these BPD empaths who are only mean when they are 'triggered'. I dunno I just am having a visceral reaction to someone equating BPD to Autism. I 100% have a personal trauma bias that is causing that visceral reaction though.

Clinician here. I always think of BPD as a highly sensitive kid who is born into an abusive environment (usually physical or sexual). They have no sense of self, hate themselves, and are constantly looking for someone to save them. When that person can’t save them, they hate that person too.

I know that they can look to their kids to save them and feel super enmeshed when kids are small, then abandoned and angry as kids get older and start to separate. I don’t think this means that they are without empathy and understanding.

I will also say that no one seems to be talking about the self harm and suicidal tendencies that I see as a hallmark of BPD. These aren’t people who think they are great or that their problems are everyone else’s fault.

[Anonymous]

What about neglect and ignorant or clueless parents, or mentally disordered parents? Does that breed a BPD child and adult?

[Anonymous]

Many people diagnosed with “borderline personality disorder” actually have complex PTSD from profound childhood abuse and/or neglect.

There was a big fight about diagnostic categories in the last DSM revision and it hasn’t all been fully canonized yet but if you have a spouse with “BPD” and a high ACE score, trauma treatment may change your lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

It’s not some sort of competition. The description just didn’t sound like narcissism. You can’t just label various things you dislike with various DSM diagnoses.

I am not the first PP here you responded to, but I am the child of a BPD. I don't think of it as a competition, and I'm not saying something is or isn't narcissism. But you are talking about how there are these BPD empaths who are only mean when they are 'triggered'. I dunno I just am having a visceral reaction to someone equating BPD to Autism. I 100% have a personal trauma bias that is causing that visceral reaction though.

Clinician here. I always think of BPD as a highly sensitive kid who is born into an abusive environment (usually physical or sexual). They have no sense of self, hate themselves, and are constantly looking for someone to save them. When that person can’t save them, they hate that person too.

I know that they can look to their kids to save them and feel super enmeshed when kids are small, then abandoned and angry as kids get older and start to separate. I don’t think this means that they are without empathy and understanding.

I will also say that no one seems to be talking about the self harm and suicidal tendencies that I see as a hallmark of BPD. These aren’t people who think they are great or that their problems are everyone else’s fault.

I actually agree with the PP who just pointed out that there is controversy over whether many people diagnosed with BPD actually just have untreated or under-treated C-PTSD. But this description above is spot on and describes how this manifests.

I have never been diagnosed with BPD but I did have an episode at one point that I think fits the clinical description of BPD as outlined above, including self harm and suicidal thoughts. In my case, it was triggered by a traumatic even that included sexual assault.

Addressing the trauma— both the original childhood trauma and the triggering event— was central to getting better.

[Anonymous]

Well my bpd parent did not have abusive parents. She did become one though.

She’s never tried to commit suicide, just threatened it to get me to come rescue her only to then act like I was crazy for ever thinking she’d actually do something like that. But keeps doing it periodically because she knows I can’t let myself not take it seriously just in case.

Intellectually I’m aware that it is good that clinicians try to get to the bottom of this and try to find treatment. But I just can’t really get on board with equating this to altruism. When my mom has systemically sh$t talked everyone I’ve ever loved to anyone who will listen (including implying that my husband abused our daughter, among many other blatant falsehoods about him), there is a part of her that knows what she’s doing. A vindictive and vicious part of her. And feeling bad about running someone over with your car doesn’t really make a difference when you keep getting back in the car to run over the body a few more times.

Autistic people don’t feel the same way others feel, they functionally cannot understand. It is not the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:BPD and NPD are two sides of the same coin.

I understand the OP's concern for her children. But were it not for them, my unequivocal advice would be to divorce ASAP. Yes, DBT can help those with BPD to manage their illness, but it can't cure it. Cluster B disordered people aren't capable of sustaining healthy relationships, so anyone wanting one should look elsewhere.

Are you a therapist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

It’s not some sort of competition. The description just didn’t sound like narcissism. You can’t just label various things you dislike with various DSM diagnoses.

I am not the first PP here you responded to, but I am the child of a BPD. I don't think of it as a competition, and I'm not saying something is or isn't narcissism. But you are talking about how there are these BPD empaths who are only mean when they are 'triggered'. I dunno I just am having a visceral reaction to someone equating BPD to Autism. I 100% have a personal trauma bias that is causing that visceral reaction though.

Clinician here. I always think of BPD as a highly sensitive kid who is born into an abusive environment (usually physical or sexual). They have no sense of self, hate themselves, and are constantly looking for someone to save them. When that person can’t save them, they hate that person too.

I know that they can look to their kids to save them and feel super enmeshed when kids are small, then abandoned and angry as kids get older and start to separate. I don’t think this means that they are without empathy and understanding.

I will also say that no one seems to be talking about the self harm and suicidal tendencies that I see as a hallmark of BPD. These aren’t people who think they are great or that their problems are everyone else’s fault.

I actually agree with the PP who just pointed out that there is controversy over whether many people diagnosed with BPD actually just have untreated or under-treated C-PTSD. But this description above is spot on and describes how this manifests.

I have never been diagnosed with BPD but I did have an episode at one point that I think fits the clinical description of BPD as outlined above, including self harm and suicidal thoughts. In my case, it was triggered by a traumatic even that included sexual assault.

Addressing the trauma— both the original childhood trauma and the triggering event— was central to getting better.

+1 at a certain point in my life I had all the hallmarks of bps. Self harm the whole thing. But there was a triggering event in my life at the time and I had a pretty rough childhood (emotional and sexual abuse). I could probably have been classified as either but I’m pretty stable now- married for 16 years in a low conflict marriage, Same job for 18 years. I do manage things carefully and don’t schedule much socialization because it is overwhelming for me.

I agree that addressing the trauma is so
Important and the line between cptsd and bpd is very blurry for some of us. Sinead O’Connor apparently was also bounced back and forth between bps and cptsd: it is hard to get “right” and maybe not much difference in the end, but I thought personality disorders were fixed so the fact that many get relief of symptoms when trauma is uncovered speaks to it not being personality based.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

It’s not some sort of competition. The description just didn’t sound like narcissism. You can’t just label various things you dislike with various DSM diagnoses.

I am not the first PP here you responded to, but I am the child of a BPD. I don't think of it as a competition, and I'm not saying something is or isn't narcissism. But you are talking about how there are these BPD empaths who are only mean when they are 'triggered'. I dunno I just am having a visceral reaction to someone equating BPD to Autism. I 100% have a personal trauma bias that is causing that visceral reaction though.

Clinician here. I always think of BPD as a highly sensitive kid who is born into an abusive environment (usually physical or sexual). They have no sense of self, hate themselves, and are constantly looking for someone to save them. When that person can’t save them, they hate that person too.

I know that they can look to their kids to save them and feel super enmeshed when kids are small, then abandoned and angry as kids get older and start to separate. I don’t think this means that they are without empathy and understanding.

I will also say that no one seems to be talking about the self harm and suicidal tendencies that I see as a hallmark of BPD. These aren’t people who think they are great or that their problems are everyone else’s fault.

this is the PP who started off this branch of discussion about empathy and BPD. I just want to clarify that while I agree with clinician PP, I in no way think the children of BPDs should forgive them or feel bad for them. I can’t tell you how many times I felt glad that the BPD in my life was my step-mother and not my mother. Being her kid was pure hell and my stepsiblings are truly scarred. I’m very glad I can see her from a total remove now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well my bpd parent did not have abusive parents. She did become one though.

She’s never tried to commit suicide, just threatened it to get me to come rescue her only to then act like I was crazy for ever thinking she’d actually do something like that. But keeps doing it periodically because she knows I can’t let myself not take it seriously just in case.

Intellectually I’m aware that it is good that clinicians try to get to the bottom of this and try to find treatment. But I just can’t really get on board with equating this to altruism. When my mom has systemically sh$t talked everyone I’ve ever loved to anyone who will listen (including implying that my husband abused our daughter, among many other blatant falsehoods about him), there is a part of her that knows what she’s doing. A vindictive and vicious part of her. And feeling bad about running someone over with your car doesn’t really make a difference when you keep getting back in the car to run over the body a few more times.

Autistic people don’t feel the same way others feel, they functionally cannot understand. It is not the same.

I can tell you what I do as a DBT therapist when a patient threatens suicide…
I either do nothing, or I call the police to do a well check.
I also explicitly tell people that if they harm themselves or threaten suicide in my voicemail, then I go no contact for 24 hours. The reason for that is that going over there, calling, etc is a positive reinforcement.