Borderline Personality

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

Checks out for me -- my mother had BPD and married a narcissist (my stepdad). It was a pretty horrible situation to grow up in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah. I don’t know what my agenda is. I don’t think there is much to do to help out narcissists except call them out on an anonymous public forum.

Like I said, the OP isn’t going to go to therapy or admit that they had a role in any of their own problems. But maybe someone else reading this will realize that the OP doesn’t seem to have any empathy for their spouse.

Ok, where are you getting this idea that OP is a narcissist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

Checks out for me -- my mother had BPD and married a narcissist (my stepdad). It was a pretty horrible situation to grow up in.

I actually dug up some research on this. Compared to controls, male partners of BPD women had higher neuroticism levels and lower testosterone. Narcissistic trait differences were apparently not statistically significant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10045094/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

Checks out for me -- my mother had BPD and married a narcissist (my stepdad). It was a pretty horrible situation to grow up in.

I actually dug up some research on this. Compared to controls, male partners of BPD women had higher neuroticism levels and lower testosterone. Narcissistic trait differences were apparently not statistically significant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10045094/

It's the stress and lack of sleep from living with a BPD/NPD. My doctor was amazed at how much my numbers improved after I got divorced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your therapist shouldn't be giving a remote diagnosis. They should be explaining to you how the behaviors work and how to take care of yourself.

The best book to read is "Stop Walking on Eggshells". There is no hope for a BPD or NPD spouse. I divorced mine and it was like I got a new life.

Agree. Instant red flag. I would like to know what credential this person has-I doubt MD or PHD.

No, plenty of PhD and MDs do this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:BPD is very treatable with a skilled (emphasis on skilled) DBT therapist.

DBT is usually at least part of the treatment of choice for BPD, but even with the best in the world I would hardly call DBT "very treatable."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BPD is very treatable with a skilled (emphasis on skilled) DBT therapist.

DBT is usually at least part of the treatment of choice for BPD, but even with the best in the world I would hardly call DBT "very treatable."

+1 borderline traits, sure, but the whole deal with personality disorders is that they are really, really persistent (and this hard to treat even with the best care)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah. I don’t know what my agenda is. I don’t think there is much to do to help out narcissists except call them out on an anonymous public forum.

Like I said, the OP isn’t going to go to therapy or admit that they had a role in any of their own problems. But maybe someone else reading this will realize that the OP doesn’t seem to have any empathy for their spouse.

Ok, where are you getting this idea that OP is a narcissist?

Because their spouse got a really difficult diagnosis, and the OP has still made themselves the main character in this story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

that’s a bunch of made-up sh*t. the borderlines I know would never ever mesh with a narcissist.

It’s from a blog. Suits that PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

It’s not some sort of competition. The description just didn’t sound like narcissism. You can’t just label various things you dislike with various DSM diagnoses.

It shows as narcissism and others suffer the same as if it were narcissism.
With those mental disorders the narc qualities are driven by lack of empathy, extreme self centeredness (it’s all they know, their own needs and wants), and emotional dysregulation.
A true narc CAN control their outbursts better and be very deliberate and manipulative.
A bipolar or borderline or aspie having an issue, yes will do it behind closed doors, but isn’t buttering someone up. They are just ram tossing around to get what they want or get you to shut up.

[Anonymous]

Oh the constant, loud temper tantrums from the 250 pound untreated ManChild.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah. I don’t know what my agenda is. I don’t think there is much to do to help out narcissists except call them out on an anonymous public forum.

Like I said, the OP isn’t going to go to therapy or admit that they had a role in any of their own problems. But maybe someone else reading this will realize that the OP doesn’t seem to have any empathy for their spouse.

Ok, where are you getting this idea that OP is a narcissist?

Because their spouse got a really difficult diagnosis, and the OP has still made themselves the main character in this story.

I think you should reread the OP

[Anonymous]

I’m married to a stbx BPD woman, and I don’t have NPD, but I certainly am more narcissistic than average. I think BPD rage is NPD-like, because only someone who can be periodically totally convinced of the righteousness of their rage and have total disregard for another could say/do the horrible stuff they do. And I think it’s the narcissist in a BPD person that is attracted to a narcissistic partner — that narcissistic partner is a trophy/arm candy. But BPDs can never see themselves the way they really are — I think all the ones in terrible relationships with narcissists — however mildly narcissistic— consider themselves to be empaths/victims.

And don’t tell me there’s not a continuum of severity for these personality traits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

You described me and my marriage. Whoa.

I am not dx with BPD, but do have a late ADHD diagnosis and but a lot of my therapy has been along the lines of DBT and learning to self-soothe.

And yeah, the healthier I get the worse my relationship has gotten.

[Anonymous]

BPD and NPD are two sides of the same coin.

I understand the OP's concern for her children. But were it not for them, my unequivocal advice would be to divorce ASAP. Yes, DBT can help those with BPD to manage their illness, but it can't cure it. Cluster B disordered people aren't capable of sustaining healthy relationships, so anyone wanting one should look elsewhere.