Borderline Personality

[Anonymous]

We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

that’s a bunch of made-up sh*t. the borderlines I know would never ever mesh with a narcissist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

Agree people with personality disorders or untreated ASD or severe ADHD develop maladaptive behaviors that can really harm partners. Disagree that this is "narcissism." It can depend and there may be overlapping symptoms (people with ASD often lack empathy, which is a hallmark of narcissism, so a high functioning person with ASD might be indistinguishable from someone with NPD). But there are people with BPD who actually have high empathy, but lack emotional regulation and can entrap people in a codependent cycle because they don't know how to take ownership over their own feelings, or manage them in a productive way. There's a huge range of outcomes here.

It's also true that people prone to codependency are often drawn to people with these issues (raises hand). If you grew up in a home with an NPD or BPD parent, you may view your ability to accommodate and enable those behaviors as a beneficial skill, and seek out people who demand the same things of you because you don't know how else to function in a relationship. You also might have a mix of relationships, some with people with BPD/NPD that mimic family patterns where your codependency is seen (by them) as positive, and others with people who don't have personality disorders where your codependency will be viewed as a problem to be fixed, because those people will not seek to exploit your enabling behaviors.

It's all very complicated and there isn't one way this goes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

This is accurate. I have two borderlines in my family. I have to admit that one of them can be useful when a strong personality is needed. But darn, walk on those eggshells or she will tear you apart and tell everyone you are scum.

The other one is medicated.

Borderlines usually will not go into treatment but the treatment is DBT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

I am the child of a parent who has BPD or is a narcissist or some combination of them. I can see how a BPD and NPD could be attracted and get together. They are both likely to love bomb and ride high on another person showering them with affection. But it also seems like a relationship doomed to extreme conflict and abuse as while the courtship seems compatible, the long term prospects seem uniquely destructive. As the narcissist withholds/becomes aloof, the BPD starts to lose their GD mind and blow up. God save the children of parents like that. My mom was generous enough to only bring alcoholism into the equation with her remarriage, not another full blown personality disorder.

I am the child of a high-conflict BPD and NPD. I survived my tumultuous and abusive childhood and am thriving with the help of CBT and a lot of work on myself. I have been in a stable marriage for 20+ years and do not exhibit the emotional disregulation of my parents.

However, I do have C-PTSD and I am "triggered" by certain sounds, movements, situations.

It has been my life's work to calm down my central nervous system.

This is me too.

It takes a lot of time and energy not to repeat the pattern and not to be suspicious and hyper vigilant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

That’s … not narcissism you are describing. and it’s odd you are lumping together three totally different conditions.

fwiw, the borderline and bipolar people I know can display a ton of empathy when they aren’t triggered (borderline) or in an episode (bipolar). autistic people are empathetic, just a different way than we generally think of it.

You seem compassionate and generous towards BPDs in a way that you are not giving to narcissists that makes me skeptical of your familiarity with BPDs. But I guess even BPDs need someone to believe in them so its good you exist.

- Child of a BPD

It’s not some sort of competition. The description just didn’t sound like narcissism. You can’t just label various things you dislike with various DSM diagnoses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We more often see the bipolar, borderline or ASD person develop negative coping mechanisms that are narcissism. Such as flying off the handle at others, being rude all the time, calling others crazy if someone makes a comment, gaslighting galore, etc.

The higher empathy and higher functioning people take longer to realize their partner has serious issues a maladaptive behaviors. They give the benefit of the doubt for too long and pick up all the slack for too long. Then get worn down. Or resentful. Or start telling others the truth about their partner (often get therapy to figure it what on earth is going on, and how to cope).

Then they really realize they are partnered with a sinking ship and need to save themselves.

Agree people with personality disorders or untreated ASD or severe ADHD develop maladaptive behaviors that can really harm partners. Disagree that this is "narcissism." It can depend and there may be overlapping symptoms (people with ASD often lack empathy, which is a hallmark of narcissism, so a high functioning person with ASD might be indistinguishable from someone with NPD). But there are people with BPD who actually have high empathy, but lack emotional regulation and can entrap people in a codependent cycle because they don't know how to take ownership over their own feelings, or manage them in a productive way. There's a huge range of outcomes here.

It's also true that people prone to codependency are often drawn to people with these issues (raises hand). If you grew up in a home with an NPD or BPD parent, you may view your ability to accommodate and enable those behaviors as a beneficial skill, and seek out people who demand the same things of you because you don't know how else to function in a relationship. You also might have a mix of relationships, some with people with BPD/NPD that mimic family patterns where your codependency is seen (by them) as positive, and others with people who don't have personality disorders where your codependency will be viewed as a problem to be fixed, because those people will not seek to exploit your enabling behaviors.

It's all very complicated and there isn't one way this goes.

very insightful, thanks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah. I don’t know what my agenda is. I don’t think there is much to do to help out narcissists except call them out on an anonymous public forum.

Like I said, the OP isn’t going to go to therapy or admit that they had a role in any of their own problems. But maybe someone else reading this will realize that the OP doesn’t seem to have any empathy for their spouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

weird agenda you have there

Yeah, DP here and the projection here is strong. To the PP -- I'm sorry if that was your experience but be careful about assuming that anytime someone was diagnosed with BPD, it will mirror your experience exactly. You are making a ton of assumption based on your experience and it's really unproductive for you and for OP.

The one thing I will say is that this PP does accurately describe how sometimes accusations of narcissism, borderline, bipolar, and other issues can be used as weapons in a dysfunctional relationship. Abusive partners often use DARVO to absolve themselves of responsibility for a dynamic, and it's especially effective on people who are codependent due to growing up with abusive parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I am probably more the passive codependent type, much to my chagrin — despite being educated and with my own career. I grew up seeing my mother tolerate my father’s physical abuse and though it infuriated me I guess I didn’t have an example of how to set boundaries.

It also has been exhausting to do so in this relationship. And now I know why.

Thanks to all who posted with their experiences. I’m coming to terms with the fact that I need to be open minded and prepare for all possibilities, including that this will end.

Hugs, OP. It is very hard to reach middle age and to be able to see how you have repeated some of the mistakes your own parents made. I'm the child of a narcissistic dad and a codependent mom (who could be borderline, it's hard to say, I'm not a psychiatrist) and I definitely realized in my mid-30s that many of my own relationships choices mirrored some of those dynamics.

It helps that my DH is not a full blown narcissist like my dad (who is truly incapable of empathy or considering the needs, or even really the existence, of people outside of himself). DH has ADHD and has some narcissistic tendencies, but the main issues tend to be high rigidity and some poor communication skills, especially around feelings. But he's actually been open to working on it, and that makes all the difference. He can recognize when he's being unreasonable and will make an effort to be more flexible. He apologizes when his words are hurtful or when his behavior harms me or our DC, and his apologies are genuine and no effort to manipulate or re-start an abuse cycle (this was not always the case but we've come a long way).

I've also had to do a lot of work on my codependency, learning to both recognize my own needs and assert them. Not just with DH but also with DC -- my mom modeled martyrdom my entire childhood and I have to work not to repeat that pattern.

I think the fact that we are both willing to recognize that the way we were taught to behave in relationships didn't work and we want to do better, makes all the difference. Simply being able to admit you need to work on yourself and being willing to make changes for the benefit of your partner and family unit works against NPD and BPD. So it sounds like you are on a better path, whatever the future brings. Good luck.

OP here. Thanks so much, I really appreciate your post. I am in therapy and working on the codependency.

My DH was more like yours pre COVID. He hit a rough patch during COVID and it has really worsened. I have trouble accepting some days that due to the mental illness he just may not be able to see the impact of his rages and shouting.

He reins it in towards the kids. I am very torn about leaving because it would mean seeing my kids half the time, when they’re still quite young (elementary) and leaving my home which I love. I will need to see how willing he is to accept help but seems like a long road ahead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your therapist shouldn't be giving a remote diagnosis. They should be explaining to you how the behaviors work and how to take care of yourself.

The best book to read is "Stop Walking on Eggshells". There is no hope for a BPD or NPD spouse. I divorced mine and it was like I got a new life.

Agree. Instant red flag. I would like to know what credential this person has-I doubt MD or PHD.

[Anonymous]

BPD is very treatable with a skilled (emphasis on skilled) DBT therapist.