Making religious comments without thinking

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The absence of an established state religion does not mean that a country is secular.

Sorry, but that is EXACTLY AND PRECISELY what it means.

Your wishcasting doesn't change it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even though we live in a secular democracy, our world is more prone to religious thinking than it is to secular thinking. In real-life small talk and in comments on message boards like this one, people often put things in a religious context, sometimes without realizing or intending it. For people who want to be more sensitive about this when in a non-religious setting, here are some comments to avoid:

- “What church do you go to?”

- “I’ll pray for you.”

And a recent response on this forum to a former Southern Baptist who became an atheist:

- “This is why crap religions piss me off. You shouldn’t be denied a relationship with the eternal energy.”

(pp either doesn’t know or doesn’t care that atheists don’t believe in an eternal energy and thus don’t think in terms of being denied it.)

- “God bless you.”

(Even atheists will say “God bless you” after someone sneezes. It’s automatic! They don’t realize they’ve said it until it’s out. It’s not meant religiously even among religious people. It’s just our way of acknowledging a sneeze. Maybe we could get used to the European focus on health -- “Salud” or “Gesundheit.”)

Any other examples or ideas on how to handle it? Hope to hear from both religious and non-religious people.

You don't get to tell me how to live with my faith.

How to handle it? Not be a bigot

OK so no one gets to tell you how to deal with your faith, but you get to tell others how to deal with theirs.

You get to make religious statements to non-religious people, but they don't get to say what they believe to you.

That sounds very Christian to me.

You don't have a belief to express. But yes, biting back if a Christian says God bless or Muslim says inshaallah or whatever is obnoxious. Just live your life without needing to be argumentative or nasty. Live and let live

I don't have a belief to express? Says who?

How about this: you keep your beliefs to yourself and we'll have no problem at all. But that's not what you want. You want yours to be the only acceptable ones. Sorry, no. At least not until you are successful in getting your theocracy to change the constitution.

So if you get to say your religious things, people with different beliefs get to say theirs. Like the fact that there is insufficient evidence for what you believe and it is likely untrue.

/ps when people sneeze I say "salut" and it always works.

Do you attempt to correct coworkers and bosses explaining how their religious practices offend you and are "untrue?" just curious how that works

The point. You missed it. By a mile.

DP. OP (you?) asked how to handle religious language and the atheist’s post in question is quite aggressive, so there’s that.

Umm it was in response to

You don't get to tell me how to live with my faith.

How to handle it? Not be a bigot

Followed by

You don't have a belief to express.

Still feel it was "quite aggressive"? Which part?

Umm, the part where you said pp’s belief was “largely untrue.”

Big difference between that confrontational slam of religion and “bless you.”

Exactly my point. You think one position is fine to express but the other is "aggressive". That's hypocrisy, and that makes you a hypocrite.

I’m sorry you can’t see the difference between an aggressive denunciation and an incidental common expression. Maybe repeat senior year of high school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even though we live in a secular democracy, our world is more prone to religious thinking than it is to secular thinking. In real-life small talk and in comments on message boards like this one, people often put things in a religious context, sometimes without realizing or intending it. For people who want to be more sensitive about this when in a non-religious setting, here are some comments to avoid:

- “What church do you go to?”

- “I’ll pray for you.”

And a recent response on this forum to a former Southern Baptist who became an atheist:

- “This is why crap religions piss me off. You shouldn’t be denied a relationship with the eternal energy.”

(pp either doesn’t know or doesn’t care that atheists don’t believe in an eternal energy and thus don’t think in terms of being denied it.)

- “God bless you.”

(Even atheists will say “God bless you” after someone sneezes. It’s automatic! They don’t realize they’ve said it until it’s out. It’s not meant religiously even among religious people. It’s just our way of acknowledging a sneeze. Maybe we could get used to the European focus on health -- “Salud” or “Gesundheit.”)

Any other examples or ideas on how to handle it? Hope to hear from both religious and non-religious people.

You don't get to tell me how to live with my faith.

How to handle it? Not be a bigot

OK so no one gets to tell you how to deal with your faith, but you get to tell others how to deal with theirs.

You get to make religious statements to non-religious people, but they don't get to say what they believe to you.

That sounds very Christian to me.

You don't have a belief to express. But yes, biting back if a Christian says God bless or Muslim says inshaallah or whatever is obnoxious. Just live your life without needing to be argumentative or nasty. Live and let live

I don't have a belief to express? Says who?

How about this: you keep your beliefs to yourself and we'll have no problem at all. But that's not what you want. You want yours to be the only acceptable ones. Sorry, no. At least not until you are successful in getting your theocracy to change the constitution.

So if you get to say your religious things, people with different beliefs get to say theirs. Like the fact that there is insufficient evidence for what you believe and it is likely untrue.

/ps when people sneeze I say "salut" and it always works.

Do you attempt to correct coworkers and bosses explaining how their religious practices offend you and are "untrue?" just curious how that works

The point. You missed it. By a mile.

DP. OP (you?) asked how to handle religious language and the atheist’s post in question is quite aggressive, so there’s that.

Umm it was in response to

You don't get to tell me how to live with my faith.

How to handle it? Not be a bigot

Followed by

You don't have a belief to express.

Still feel it was "quite aggressive"? Which part?

Umm, the part where you said pp’s belief was “largely untrue.”

Big difference between that confrontational slam of religion and “bless you.”

Exactly my point. You think one position is fine to express but the other is "aggressive". That's hypocrisy, and that makes you a hypocrite.

I’m sorry you can’t see the difference between an aggressive denunciation and an incidental common expression. Maybe repeat senior year of high school?

You should join me there and don't be absent on the day "irony" is covered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even though we live in a secular democracy, our world is more prone to religious thinking than it is to secular thinking. In real-life small talk and in comments on message boards like this one, people often put things in a religious context, sometimes without realizing or intending it. For people who want to be more sensitive about this when in a non-religious setting, here are some comments to avoid:

- “What church do you go to?”

- “I’ll pray for you.”

And a recent response on this forum to a former Southern Baptist who became an atheist:

- “This is why crap religions piss me off. You shouldn’t be denied a relationship with the eternal energy.”

(pp either doesn’t know or doesn’t care that atheists don’t believe in an eternal energy and thus don’t think in terms of being denied it.)

- “God bless you.”

(Even atheists will say “God bless you” after someone sneezes. It’s automatic! They don’t realize they’ve said it until it’s out. It’s not meant religiously even among religious people. It’s just our way of acknowledging a sneeze. Maybe we could get used to the European focus on health -- “Salud” or “Gesundheit.”)

Any other examples or ideas on how to handle it? Hope to hear from both religious and non-religious people.

You don't get to tell me how to live with my faith.

How to handle it? Not be a bigot

Oh, you’re sooooo persecuted. You poor, poor victim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The absence of an established state religion does not mean that a country is secular.

That is exactly what it means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If someone goes rabid if I say "bless you" after they sneeze, then I know to avoid that person like a plague because they might have a personality disorder with endless potential perceived slights.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The absence of an established state religion does not mean that a country is secular.

Sorry, but that is EXACTLY AND PRECISELY what it means.

Your wishcasting doesn't change it.

A secular state claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion.

States that describe themselves as secular have religious references in their national anthems and flags, or laws that benefit one religion or another.

The separation of church and state does not mean the separation of religion from public life.

The U.S. Constitution and the First Amendment to the Constitution were not intended to create a purely secular government. The Constitution, at the time it was drafted, was largely a procedural document, which sought to enumerate carefully the powers of the national government while leaving the police power and most substantive questions of morality, religion, education, and such, to the states.

The First Amendment, which prohibits the establishment of a religion and protects the free exercise of religion, was not intended to secularize the national government, but instead to protect against sectarian conflict and exclusiveness and the power grab by a national church.


Whatever the theological differences were among figures such as Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, George Washington, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, these men were of one mind in endorsing the crucial importance of religion for the sustenance of public morality. They thought religion was a good thing and made a very strong endorsement of the need for religion to be a force in public life, as a part of public discourse affecting the public sphere.

America=the separation of church and state, but at the same time the mingling of religion and public life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even though we live in a secular democracy, our world is more prone to religious thinking than it is to secular thinking. In real-life small talk and in comments on message boards like this one, people often put things in a religious context, sometimes without realizing or intending it. For people who want to be more sensitive about this when in a non-religious setting, here are some comments to avoid:

- “What church do you go to?”

- “I’ll pray for you.”

And a recent response on this forum to a former Southern Baptist who became an atheist:

- “This is why crap religions piss me off. You shouldn’t be denied a relationship with the eternal energy.”

(pp either doesn’t know or doesn’t care that atheists don’t believe in an eternal energy and thus don’t think in terms of being denied it.)

- “God bless you.”

(Even atheists will say “God bless you” after someone sneezes. It’s automatic! They don’t realize they’ve said it until it’s out. It’s not meant religiously even among religious people. It’s just our way of acknowledging a sneeze. Maybe we could get used to the European focus on health -- “Salud” or “Gesundheit.”)

Any other examples or ideas on how to handle it? Hope to hear from both religious and non-religious people.

You don't get to tell me how to live with my faith.

How to handle it? Not be a bigot

Oh, you’re sooooo persecuted. You poor, poor victim.

This commenter is an idiot and a bigot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone goes rabid if I say "bless you" after they sneeze, then I know to avoid that person like a plague because they might have a personality disorder with endless potential perceived slights.

+1

+2. I’m atheist and can’t imagine being angered by “bless you”.

I really never hear any of the things OP raised, nor do I say them. I can’t remember if I’ve ever been asked where I go to church. I think the Christian/atheist drama exists entirely in the minds of the DCUM religion forum posters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even though we live in a secular democracy, our world is more prone to religious thinking than it is to secular thinking. In real-life small talk and in comments on message boards like this one, people often put things in a religious context, sometimes without realizing or intending it. For people who want to be more sensitive about this when in a non-religious setting, here are some comments to avoid:

- “What church do you go to?”

- “I’ll pray for you.”

And a recent response on this forum to a former Southern Baptist who became an atheist:

- “This is why crap religions piss me off. You shouldn’t be denied a relationship with the eternal energy.”

(pp either doesn’t know or doesn’t care that atheists don’t believe in an eternal energy and thus don’t think in terms of being denied it.)

- “God bless you.”

(Even atheists will say “God bless you” after someone sneezes. It’s automatic! They don’t realize they’ve said it until it’s out. It’s not meant religiously even among religious people. It’s just our way of acknowledging a sneeze. Maybe we could get used to the European focus on health -- “Salud” or “Gesundheit.”)

Any other examples or ideas on how to handle it? Hope to hear from both religious and non-religious people.

You don't get to tell me how to live with my faith.

How to handle it? Not be a bigot

Oh, you’re sooooo persecuted. You poor, poor victim.

DP. Simply hilarious to post this in a thread where an atheist is whining that they're persecuted by people saying "bless you" and then comparing that to an actual slur.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone goes rabid if I say "bless you" after they sneeze, then I know to avoid that person like a plague because they might have a personality disorder with endless potential perceived slights.

+1

+2. I’m atheist and can’t imagine being angered by “bless you”.

I really never hear any of the things OP raised, nor do I say them. I can’t remember if I’ve ever been asked where I go to church. I think the Christian/atheist drama exists entirely in the minds of the DCUM religion forum posters.

I agree, so very much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really think that being set off by incidental religious expressions suggests that the person disturbed by them has very little confidence in their own moral beliefs and is afraid they be missing something either positively or negatively.

For example, there are religions that do not eat pork. I come from an ethnic background where pork is a celebratory dish. It doesn’t bother me an iota when people mention that pork is against their religion. As long as they’re not picking a fight who cares?

Would it bother you if they said they thought no one should eat pork? What if they offered you pork and were offended when you didn't take it? In that situation, would you tell them that in your religion pork is a celebratory dish? What if you were a vegetarian atheist - would you tell them that?

They’re entitled to their beliefs. They can think anything they want and eat what they choose. So can I. I don’t get into debates about that.

I don’t understand the question about me being offered pork. I don’t expect my pork-avoiding neighbors are likely to do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The absence of an established state religion does not mean that a country is secular.

It does mean the country is secular. Maybe you're thinking of the people living in the country.

NP. The original poster said "secular nation," which can definitely mean "the people" not merely the state. PP also followed that up with:

"The majority of those who live in this country are, and have always been, religious.

Many Americans practice Christianity, their individual beliefs have influenced society"

The meaning was very clear that most Americans are Christians and thus Christian belief underlies a lot of Americans culture.

I don't believe this is true anymore -- maybe not since the 70s. American culture is driven by more by our belief in the "American way" and by consumerism. Christianity is way down the list, and with the younger people it's falling farther behind all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say I think OP is kind of trolling but I was at a bar the other night and was talking to a guy casually and kind of jokingly told him to give me his elevator pitch of who he was as a person and he kicked it off with 'I am a God fearing Christian' or something like that and I have to admit it took effort to keep the surprise off my face.

Of course there's nothing wrong with that, but it seemed like a very intense way to talk to a girl at a bar who was wearing black lipstick haha.

OP here. Definitely not trolling – genuinely curious, especially when I realized that as a society, we have managed to try to be kind to people who are in the minority. For example, the term "fag" and the usually pejoratively expressed “homosexual” changed over time to “gay” – a positive word. And Now there’s LGBTQ.

As a society, we’re moving away from unconsciously stigmatizing people who are not in the majority. I’d like to see it happen with people who don’t believe in God, too.

I’d sure like to hear from some religious people who think it’s a good idea to avoid using religious speech in secular settings.

I'm the pp and an atheist and think you're being a little melodramatic (and TBH I think a lot of the LGBT stuff is a little melodramatic too and I'm very liberal pro 'let people do what they want'). If we police language to the point that no one feels they can insert any of themselves in the words because they are worried about otherizing someone else then that is ridiculous. That guy opened with that and hey I didn't continue the conversation very far. I found out we didn't have much in common! I wasn't insulted. If someone says god bless you they aren't trying to hurt you. We can't become like the lunatics who think anyone wishing them happy holidays is personally trying to punch them in the face with words. Most people are just trying to be themselves and be kind. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt!

I agree - most people are not trying to be hateful. I think they are just unconsciously being thoughtless, just like people were a few years ago, when they called LQBTQ people fags, under their breath, or made those little hand flips (remember those?) the way they assumed gays did. And LGBTQ people felt they had to pretend to be straight to fit into a straight world.

Plus, it's much easier to pass as a non-religious person. A lot of us know how to fit in because religion is so pervasive and/or because we once were religious ourselves.

We can blend more easily, no question about it. I just don't think we're doing ourselves or others a favor when we do.

Equating someone saying god bless you with the way people would call gay people slurs is really over the top. No one is saying god bless you as an insult.

[Anonymous]

Whatever the theological differences were among figures such as Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, George Washington, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, these men were of one mind in endorsing the crucial importance of religion for the sustenance of public morality. They thought religion was a good thing and made a very strong endorsement of the need for religion to be a force in public life, as a part of public discourse affecting the public sphere.

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
-Benjamin Franklin

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason."
- Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."
- Benjamin Franklin

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."
- Benjamin Franklin

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
-Thomas Jefferson

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination."
- Source: Thomas Jefferson, Note to Elementary School Act, 1817.

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
- James Madison

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect."
- James Madison

"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
- James Madison in the Treaty of Tripoli, making it the law of the land

I think that's quite enough
- PP

America=the separation of church and state, but at the same time the mingling of religion and public life.

Nope. Just the opposite.