Teachers not providing feedback IS a serious problem

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an English teacher. I provide a ton of meaningful feedback. It’s actually the #1 reason I am thinking of leaving the profession after 18 years of successful teaching.

I agree with the parents here. Yes, written feedback is very important. That’s why I do it. Unfortunately, feedback on one set of essays can take me 30 hours. I don’t get ANY time to grade at work, so that is done in the evenings, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday. It isn’t unusual for me to work 7 10-hour days a week. This isn’t exaggeration. It’s the only way I can get that feedback to students quick enough to make it matter.

I have my own family. My own children are growing up without a mom since my head is always bent over papers for 10 months of every year. It isn’t worth it.

I’m planning on quitting. It isn’t pay or student behavior driving my decision. It’s the grading and the system’s lack of respect for my time.

But this has been your entire career so why is this year somehow different? Class sizes haven't changed. Your colleagues obviously do not grade this way. I don't get why there are teaches on here saying they are the one truly good English teacher thinking of leaving but somehow they have no actual agency to do anything through their school. They are just puppets who apparently slaved away for years while their colleages left at the bell but now due to some who knows what issue that just magically came about, because we know SOL's went away for the most part especially the writing ones, they are now ready to leave. It's all just smoke and mirrors. It's just another teacher who never did any of this work just making up stories to leave so they can feel better about themselves. If this were a real case they would be able to document how anything changed and why this year is so terrible and what they did to help make change that didn't work. Class size hasn't changed. Assessments have been less not more. SOL's less not more. Homework less not more. Everything is less.

This is a rather nonsensical post. It appears you are questioning whether I actually work as hard as I do? You are assuming I’m some type of martyr as my coworkers leave work at the end of the day empty-handed? That couldn’t be further from the truth.

The job has gotten exponentially harder in the last five years. We now cover during our planning periods. Student behaviors take up FAR more time than they used to. We are now responsible for a lot more than we used to be.

I assume you aren’t a teacher? If you are, you would have already known this.

NP. Then it sounds like it is time for you to move on. Your complaints sound valid. But, moving on, you'd be happier, or at least less bitter. And maybe the kids would get the meaningful feedback that they need from someone who still wants to be there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an English teacher. I provide a ton of meaningful feedback. It’s actually the #1 reason I am thinking of leaving the profession after 18 years of successful teaching.

I agree with the parents here. Yes, written feedback is very important. That’s why I do it. Unfortunately, feedback on one set of essays can take me 30 hours. I don’t get ANY time to grade at work, so that is done in the evenings, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday. It isn’t unusual for me to work 7 10-hour days a week. This isn’t exaggeration. It’s the only way I can get that feedback to students quick enough to make it matter.

I have my own family. My own children are growing up without a mom since my head is always bent over papers for 10 months of every year. It isn’t worth it.

I’m planning on quitting. It isn’t pay or student behavior driving my decision. It’s the grading and the system’s lack of respect for my time.

But this has been your entire career so why is this year somehow different? Class sizes haven't changed. Your colleagues obviously do not grade this way. I don't get why there are teaches on here saying they are the one truly good English teacher thinking of leaving but somehow they have no actual agency to do anything through their school. They are just puppets who apparently slaved away for years while their colleages left at the bell but now due to some who knows what issue that just magically came about, because we know SOL's went away for the most part especially the writing ones, they are now ready to leave. It's all just smoke and mirrors. It's just another teacher who never did any of this work just making up stories to leave so they can feel better about themselves. If this were a real case they would be able to document how anything changed and why this year is so terrible and what they did to help make change that didn't work. Class size hasn't changed. Assessments have been less not more. SOL's less not more. Homework less not more. Everything is less.

So confused at you thinking the writing SOL went away. It has not. Juniors took it this March and also took the new pilot one for next year which will be integrated reading and writing with nonfiction. So now we have to teach a new form of writing for the SOL. Why get on here and say stuff that’s just blatantly not true?

Maybe they are talking about the 8th grade writing SOL?

And the 5th grade writing SOL that was removed

[Anonymous]

Also my understanding is that 5th, 8th, and 3nd of course no longer require actual essays like they used to
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learning-assessment/k-12-standards-instruction/english-reading-literacy/assessment-resources/english-sol-writing-resources

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Then it sounds like it is time for you to move on. Your complaints sound valid. But, moving on, you'd be happier, or at least less bitter. And maybe the kids would get the meaningful feedback that they need from someone who still wants to be there.

I’m not the person you replied to but lol how clueless. Teachers moving on is what’s causing the problem. The mythical person you want to teach your kids isn’t coming and the more that leave the faster those remain burn out and leave too, and all that will be left are the teachers that can’t leave and those are generally not the ones you want. People with all the right training as well as infinite passion in the face of awful conditions does not exist at the scale FCPS needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Then it sounds like it is time for you to move on. Your complaints sound valid. But, moving on, you'd be happier, or at least less bitter. And maybe the kids would get the meaningful feedback that they need from someone who still wants to be there.

I’m not the person you replied to but lol how clueless. Teachers moving on is what’s causing the problem. The mythical person you want to teach your kids isn’t coming and the more that leave the faster those remain burn out and leave too, and all that will be left are the teachers that can’t leave and those are generally not the ones you want. People with all the right training as well as infinite passion in the face of awful conditions does not exist at the scale FCPS needs.

Not clueless. It's spot on. Plenty of teachers at my kid's school are stellar. and have found a way to make it work and work well Then there are the ones that are not and have not (luckily for us that has been the exception not the rule). And we'd all be happier, them and us, if they just moved on. Conditions are not changing in the way that teachers want them to and so the "survival of the fittest" is going to have to act to cull out those who don't like the current situation. And let's face it, even paying more isn't going to fix those things.

Whatever.

I only have a few more years in FCPS. So in the end, this is not going to affect us. So, if you all want to go around hurling insults at parents for what are LEGITIMATE concerns, have at it. Literally, I don't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Then it sounds like it is time for you to move on. Your complaints sound valid. But, moving on, you'd be happier, or at least less bitter. And maybe the kids would get the meaningful feedback that they need from someone who still wants to be there.

I’m not the person you replied to but lol how clueless. Teachers moving on is what’s causing the problem. The mythical person you want to teach your kids isn’t coming and the more that leave the faster those remain burn out and leave too, and all that will be left are the teachers that can’t leave and those are generally not the ones you want. People with all the right training as well as infinite passion in the face of awful conditions does not exist at the scale FCPS needs.

Not clueless. It's spot on. Plenty of teachers at my kid's school are stellar. and have found a way to make it work and work well Then there are the ones that are not and have not (luckily for us that has been the exception not the rule). And we'd all be happier, them and us, if they just moved on. Conditions are not changing in the way that teachers want them to and so the "survival of the fittest" is going to have to act to cull out those who don't like the current situation. And let's face it, even paying more isn't going to fix those things.

Whatever.

I only have a few more years in FCPS. So in the end, this is not going to affect us. So, if you all want to go around hurling insults at parents for what are LEGITIMATE concerns, have at it. Literally, I don't care.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an English teacher. I provide a ton of meaningful feedback. It’s actually the #1 reason I am thinking of leaving the profession after 18 years of successful teaching.

I agree with the parents here. Yes, written feedback is very important. That’s why I do it. Unfortunately, feedback on one set of essays can take me 30 hours. I don’t get ANY time to grade at work, so that is done in the evenings, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday. It isn’t unusual for me to work 7 10-hour days a week. This isn’t exaggeration. It’s the only way I can get that feedback to students quick enough to make it matter.

I have my own family. My own children are growing up without a mom since my head is always bent over papers for 10 months of every year. It isn’t worth it.

I’m planning on quitting. It isn’t pay or student behavior driving my decision. It’s the grading and the system’s lack of respect for my time.

Thank you for your service. Thank you for providing real meaningful feedback. Maybe not every student learned from every comment but they learned from you.

As a fellow English teacher, this is so trite. I know you mean well, but this isn’t true. And what people expect us to give up for this job (e.g. hours and hours of our own life to provide all this never-used or even looked at feedback) isn’t worth the trade off of what we lose just to be patted on the back with toss off comments that reward us for martyrdom.

This was my comment. I didn't mean to be trite, I was trying to express appreciation. Did all of her students read all of the comments she made and spent her own time on, all of the time? No. Did some of them read them some of the time? Yes. And some of them learned and improved.

Students now don't get any comments so when some of them go on to be teachers, comments will be an unheard of concept for them and their students. It's a difficult way to learn.

Sorry, but as a former English teacher, I’m gonna be blunt in saying you are completely off base. The vast majority of students do NOT learn from comments written on paper. Fewer than 5 out of 125, on average, in my experience, pay any attention whatsoever to them. Maybe 1 will follow up and ask for clarification.

The 10-20 hours per week I spent on writing feedback were a HUGE waste of time in terms of actual impact on students. I had some parents who were highly impressed. Parents who paid attention to the feedback…and some who disputed it because they did the vast majority of work on the paper and were emotionally invested in it. But my 7th, 10th, or 11th graders? Nope. (almost) nobody cared. And those 5 kids who did quite literally did not deserve 10-20 hours of my time.

Those few who cared would have gotten more out of a dedicated 5 minute conference. And EVERYTHING for all my students would have been better if I had spent 5 more hours planning instruction, and literally NO time writing comments on paper. None. But one hour at home or in the weekends.

But I didn’t know that then, and I was too much of a people pleaser to risk annoying those parents who expected comments. So I burned out and left teaching after 7 years. And I can never get those 7 years of my life back, most of my 20’s, when I lost friendships, neglected boyfriends, and missed countless events with my family outbid state because I was never done grading. Every day off I was grading. Every Sunday. Every long weekend. Every Spring break.

Nope. OP, this is not a good use of a teacher’s time.

I am back in education now, many years later, in a non-classroom role.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I normally skip over all the FCPS/teacher bashing posts here, but the one post about teachers not providing feedback really got me thinking.

If the new norm is that teachers just put a score in the grade book and it’s on the student to come talk to the teachers to understand why they got that score, we have a serious problem. I can’t imagine not getting an essay back that I wrote without any feedback on how to improve my writing. Let alone a math test…

This is a core function to learning in my opinion and not something that can just be done away with or on a request only basis.

Teachers say this is because they are overworked and have too many students. The lack of teachers at the moment probably isn’t making this any easier. And with all the mud being thrown in their face on a daily basis, I can’t imagine anyone would want to go into teaching. So now we have a retention and recruiting problem…

At some point someone needs to throw up the red flag on a national level and turn this ship around. And by that I mean addressing the real issues and not these BS “CRT” and “GET THE PORN OUT OF SCHOOLS” distractions. The real issues i see are:

1. Retention- (fix this by better pay, benefits)
2. Recruiting- this is a nationwide issue. Perhaps full ride scholarships for teachers like the military does with ROTC. No one wants to go into student debt to get treated like a subhuman
3. Morale- give the teachers their dignity back. They are professionals and should be treated as such. No, Karen, just because you have children in school does not mean the teachers work for you or you should be able to dictate how they run their classroom. They are public servants - like police or judges. Treat them with respect.
4. State Testing- just get rid of it already. It takes away from the students learning and puts pressure on teachers to only teach towards the test (this is what happens when you tie teacher raises and school funding to test scores). Let’s be honest- rich people care about it because the high test scores affect their property value. We don’t need to be making decisions about public education to benefit some rich people and their property values

I’m sure there are a lot of other problems, but this really jumped out to me. Just my thoughts. And this isn’t just high school- my middle schooler also hasn’t received feedback on assignments all year

I agree with you on most points but as a former high school English teacher who left the profession because I was working 60-80 hours a week and still never done:

I absolutely support teachers not writing in margins of papers. Seriously. For the vast majority of students it is a complete waste of time. I’d spend hours and hours writing detailed feedback…let’s say, 10 mins per student x 120 students = 20 hours of work. 20 hours! And I got 5 hours is planning time per week to plan all of my lessons, not even counting grading. So it was never done, and I was always feeling inadequate and a failure and stressed.

Of those 120 students, fewer than 10 would actually read the comments, and maybe 5 per assignment might ask for the chance to re-write something. The rest just looked for a grade and threw out the paper…or at best maybe skimmed comments looking for praise and ignored everything else.

I might have at most 5-10% of students who acted upon suggestions even when I gave time to do revisions and rewriting in class.

So, of those 20 hours…only 1 hour actually had any impact on student achievement. I literally gave up that many hours every week that I could have spent with my friends, family, fitness, and my own goals and joys…all
Of which I neglected because I was constantly grading papers.

Now, if I were to go back (and if I could turn back time and get back those literally YEARS of my life I lost trying to earn gold stars for being a great English teacher) I would give just a grade and would conference with students in class who asked. Each student could get 5-10 mins and 3 actionable tips for improvement. All in the school day. They’d be able to revise. Win/win.

Teaching DOWN to those who don't care is not the answer. That's not fulfilling your job to the kids who do care.

Your complaints are valid and understandable, and the posts of other teachers on here are also appalling to read in terms of how the kids treat them, but you're lumping all the kids together. That's disrespectful also. And handing them some verbose, unhelpful "rubric" with a number on it is not teaching them. It's not. I was a writing instructor for awhile -and I did the margin comments and red ink write ups for my classes b/c it is the most useful feedback- and these things are useless.

So, your solution is not a solution. But I'd be interested in hearing from teachers what the solution is. Because at this point, why even give assignments. Most kids (in other than the fact-based subjects like math) are not getting meaningful feedback and learning the material to their abilities, and then college professors, employers, etc. complain that "kids can't write" or "kids aren't capable of analyzing" problems. Well. . . . that's b/c you don't learn that from a rubric.

Well, you are not resign very closely. This actually IS a solution. No margin comments….there is no need to do for 149 students what is useful only to 5 of them. The fact that you were a “writing instructor” and wrote margin notes that you felt were effective doesn’t mean they actually ARE effective.

My HS students were honest, for the most part. And the vast majority would admit they didn’t care or pay attention to the comments. Just the grade.

Rubrics don’t teach writing. But writers become better writers the more they write and have a real audience who gives feedback on their writing. NOT assessment feedback from a teacher. Real feedback from a real audience.

A good writing teacher would assign FAR more than she could ever read, much less comment on. A great English teacher would spend time creating real writing opportunities for students, planning effective lessons, and guiding students toward developing lots of first drafts into a few final drafts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Then it sounds like it is time for you to move on. Your complaints sound valid. But, moving on, you'd be happier, or at least less bitter. And maybe the kids would get the meaningful feedback that they need from someone who still wants to be there.

I’m not the person you replied to but lol how clueless. Teachers moving on is what’s causing the problem. The mythical person you want to teach your kids isn’t coming and the more that leave the faster those remain burn out and leave too, and all that will be left are the teachers that can’t leave and those are generally not the ones you want. People with all the right training as well as infinite passion in the face of awful conditions does not exist at the scale FCPS needs.

Not clueless. It's spot on. Plenty of teachers at my kid's school are stellar. and have found a way to make it work and work well Then there are the ones that are not and have not (luckily for us that has been the exception not the rule). And we'd all be happier, them and us, if they just moved on. Conditions are not changing in the way that teachers want them to and so the "survival of the fittest" is going to have to act to cull out those who don't like the current situation. And let's face it, even paying more isn't going to fix those things.

Whatever.

I only have a few more years in FCPS. So in the end, this is not going to affect us. So, if you all want to go around hurling insults at parents for what are LEGITIMATE concerns, have at it. Literally, I don't care.

Those stellar teachers who make it work? They are sacrificing their nights and weekends. They just aren’t telling you that. Teachers who will “make it work and work well” give up their work / life balance.

Survival of the fittest? I don’t want my job to be a “survival” situation. Your word choice alone shows what you really think of teachers. We are expected to martyr ourselves: just shut up and take the conditions, or be “weak” and leave.

But by your own admission: you don’t care. I am not one of the posters hurling insults at parents, but I am a teacher who endures tons FROM parents on DCUM. I have to remind myself that most parents aren’t as disrespectful as what I see here.

- stellar teacher here

[Anonymous]

Also my understanding is that 5th, 8th, and 3nd of course no longer require actual essays like they used to
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...ol-writing-resources

8th grade test still requires an essay. However, they are piloting a reading/writing test for 8th grade for next year. Not sure how much writing will be on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Then it sounds like it is time for you to move on. Your complaints sound valid. But, moving on, you'd be happier, or at least less bitter. And maybe the kids would get the meaningful feedback that they need from someone who still wants to be there.

I’m not the person you replied to but lol how clueless. Teachers moving on is what’s causing the problem. The mythical person you want to teach your kids isn’t coming and the more that leave the faster those remain burn out and leave too, and all that will be left are the teachers that can’t leave and those are generally not the ones you want. People with all the right training as well as infinite passion in the face of awful conditions does not exist at the scale FCPS needs.

Not clueless. It's spot on. Plenty of teachers at my kid's school are stellar. and have found a way to make it work and work well Then there are the ones that are not and have not (luckily for us that has been the exception not the rule). And we'd all be happier, them and us, if they just moved on. Conditions are not changing in the way that teachers want them to and so the "survival of the fittest" is going to have to act to cull out those who don't like the current situation. And let's face it, even paying more isn't going to fix those things.

Whatever.

I only have a few more years in FCPS. So in the end, this is not going to affect us. So, if you all want to go around hurling insults at parents for what are LEGITIMATE concerns, have at it. Literally, I don't care.

Those stellar teachers who make it work? They are sacrificing their nights and weekends. They just aren’t telling you that. Teachers who will “make it work and work well” give up their work / life balance.

Survival of the fittest? I don’t want my job to be a “survival” situation. Your word choice alone shows what you really think of teachers. We are expected to martyr ourselves: just shut up and take the conditions, or be “weak” and leave.

But by your own admission: you don’t care. I am not one of the posters hurling insults at parents, but I am a teacher who endures tons FROM parents on DCUM. I have to remind myself that most parents aren’t as disrespectful as what I see here.

- stellar teacher here

+100, and my 20+ years of teaching it’s the “bad” teachers who actually stay because they’re not sacrificing their personal life.

[Anonymous]

But by your own admission: you don’t care. I am not one of the posters hurling insults at parents, but I am a teacher who endures tons FROM parents on DCUM. I have to remind myself that most parents aren’t as disrespectful as what I see here.

Thank goodness! Disagree, though, that teachers who stay don't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But by your own admission: you don’t care. I am not one of the posters hurling insults at parents, but I am a teacher who endures tons FROM parents on DCUM. I have to remind myself that most parents aren’t as disrespectful as what I see here.

Thank goodness! Disagree, though, that teachers who stay don't care.

There are teachers who still care, but they are running on fumes and burning out. Caring means working every Sunday. Caring means putting your job over your family.

It isn’t sustainable. The only way to make it work is to considerably drop standards for yourself and for your students. That means fewer engaging lessons, old curricula that doesn’t match current student needs, and no comments on assignments.

I don’t want to drop my standards, so I’ll be quitting instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Also my understanding is that 5th, 8th, and 3nd of course no longer require actual essays like they used to
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...ol-writing-resources

8th grade test still requires an essay. However, they are piloting a reading/writing test for 8th grade for next year. Not sure how much writing will be on it.

My point. There is no writing these teachers need to teach. So there is less writing to teach. And honestly chat gtp can probably give feedback in the margins if teachers don’t want to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Then it sounds like it is time for you to move on. Your complaints sound valid. But, moving on, you'd be happier, or at least less bitter. And maybe the kids would get the meaningful feedback that they need from someone who still wants to be there.

I’m not the person you replied to but lol how clueless. Teachers moving on is what’s causing the problem. The mythical person you want to teach your kids isn’t coming and the more that leave the faster those remain burn out and leave too, and all that will be left are the teachers that can’t leave and those are generally not the ones you want. People with all the right training as well as infinite passion in the face of awful conditions does not exist at the scale FCPS needs.

Not clueless. It's spot on. Plenty of teachers at my kid's school are stellar. and have found a way to make it work and work well Then there are the ones that are not and have not (luckily for us that has been the exception not the rule). And we'd all be happier, them and us, if they just moved on. Conditions are not changing in the way that teachers want them to and so the "survival of the fittest" is going to have to act to cull out those who don't like the current situation. And let's face it, even paying more isn't going to fix those things.

Whatever.

I only have a few more years in FCPS. So in the end, this is not going to affect us. So, if you all want to go around hurling insults at parents for what are LEGITIMATE concerns, have at it. Literally, I don't care.

Those stellar teachers who make it work? They are sacrificing their nights and weekends. They just aren’t telling you that. Teachers who will “make it work and work well” give up their work / life balance.

Survival of the fittest? I don’t want my job to be a “survival” situation. Your word choice alone shows what you really think of teachers. We are expected to martyr ourselves: just shut up and take the conditions, or be “weak” and leave.

But by your own admission: you don’t care. I am not one of the posters hurling insults at parents, but I am a teacher who endures tons FROM parents on DCUM. I have to remind myself that most parents aren’t as disrespectful as what I see here.

- stellar teacher here

Well, good for you. I stand by my comments and some of the others on here. And, with only a few years left, no I really don't care. And as for "work/life" you have all summer off and are not the only profession that struggles with that. So, I really don't want to hear it.