Teachers not providing feedback IS a serious problem

[Anonymous]

I normally skip over all the FCPS/teacher bashing posts here, but the one post about teachers not providing feedback really got me thinking.

If the new norm is that teachers just put a score in the grade book and it’s on the student to come talk to the teachers to understand why they got that score, we have a serious problem. I can’t imagine not getting an essay back that I wrote without any feedback on how to improve my writing. Let alone a math test…

This is a core function to learning in my opinion and not something that can just be done away with or on a request only basis.

Teachers say this is because they are overworked and have too many students. The lack of teachers at the moment probably isn’t making this any easier. And with all the mud being thrown in their face on a daily basis, I can’t imagine anyone would want to go into teaching. So now we have a retention and recruiting problem…

At some point someone needs to throw up the red flag on a national level and turn this ship around. And by that I mean addressing the real issues and not these BS “CRT” and “GET THE PORN OUT OF SCHOOLS” distractions. The real issues i see are:

1. Retention- (fix this by better pay, benefits)
2. Recruiting- this is a nationwide issue. Perhaps full ride scholarships for teachers like the military does with ROTC. No one wants to go into student debt to get treated like a subhuman
3. Morale- give the teachers their dignity back. They are professionals and should be treated as such. No, Karen, just because you have children in school does not mean the teachers work for you or you should be able to dictate how they run their classroom. They are public servants - like police or judges. Treat them with respect.
4. State Testing- just get rid of it already. It takes away from the students learning and puts pressure on teachers to only teach towards the test (this is what happens when you tie teacher raises and school funding to test scores). Let’s be honest- rich people care about it because the high test scores affect their property value. We don’t need to be making decisions about public education to benefit some rich people and their property values

I’m sure there are a lot of other problems, but this really jumped out to me. Just my thoughts. And this isn’t just high school- my middle schooler also hasn’t received feedback on assignments all year

[Anonymous]

I agree with your suggestions, but I want to point out that test scores are not tied to funding anymore, or at least, schools that score poorly receive more funding now, under ESSA. The problem with state test scores is that everyone wants them - parents want to know how their DC is doing, how their school compares. Everyone wants to have numbers to look at - journalists, politicians, educators, parents, everyone. We're addicted to test scores.

Also, there are job shortages almost everywhere. Doctor shortages, nurse shortages, teacher shortages, even retail worker shortages. There are not enough people anywhere, it seems. We need to radically reallocate our workforce, but I think we also need to radically restructure everything - every profession is unhappy, hates their job, tells their children not to follow in their footsteps. Etc. As parents, teachers are the profession that we see every day. But so many professions are broken right now. Not just teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
4. State Testing- just get rid of it already. It takes away from the students learning and puts pressure on teachers to only teach towards the test (this is what happens when you tie teacher raises and school funding to test scores). Let’s be honest- rich people care about it because the high test scores affect their property value. We don’t need to be making decisions about public education to benefit some rich people and their property values

What a thoughtful post. I agree with your concern, but would like to highlight one contradiction here:

State testing (SOL and VGA) are, for better or worse, the only place where students get at least some feedback that allows them and their parents to see how well they do with respect to their peers. This is because SOL results are publicly posted on the VDoE website and are uniformly administered throughout the state. This is unlike all other school assignments where the score, in addition to being provided without comments, is also opaque to the point of being meaningless.

I would actually like to see a system where students receive their SOL score as a letter grade, thus providing incentive for students to do well and not just for teachers that their students do well. Teaching to the test, btw, is not a bad thing as long as the test is good (the SOLs are perhaps a bit too watered down, given their express purpose of just testing the very basics). But let's have students master these basics first, as evidenced by tests, then teachers can stack all the other nice things they want to teach on top.

As a side note, standardized tests will also help members of underrepresented groups proportionally more, thus contributing to the political goals of some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
4. State Testing- just get rid of it already. It takes away from the students learning and puts pressure on teachers to only teach towards the test (this is what happens when you tie teacher raises and school funding to test scores). Let’s be honest- rich people care about it because the high test scores affect their property value. We don’t need to be making decisions about public education to benefit some rich people and their property values

What a thoughtful post. I agree with your concern, but would like to highlight one contradiction here:

State testing (SOL and VGA) are, for better or worse, the only place where students get at least some feedback that allows them and their parents to see how well they do with respect to their peers. This is because SOL results are publicly posted on the VDoE website and are uniformly administered throughout the state. This is unlike all other school assignments where the score, in addition to being provided without comments, is also opaque to the point of being meaningless.

I would actually like to see a system where students receive their SOL score as a letter grade, thus providing incentive for students to do well and not just for teachers that their students do well. Teaching to the test, btw, is not a bad thing as long as the test is good (the SOLs are perhaps a bit too watered down, given their express purpose of just testing the very basics). But let's have students master these basics first, as evidenced by tests, then teachers can stack all the other nice things they want to teach on top.

As a side note, standardized tests will also help members of underrepresented groups proportionally more, thus contributing to the political goals of some.

I don't know about their express purpose of just testing the very basics but the SOLs are not watered down and do not test just the very basics. They are tests of the standards - doing well means that the student has learned everything they are are supposed to have learned. The SOLs are not easy, basic tests. They also go in several-year cycles, for some years parents complain that they are too easy so they are raised up, then parents complain that they are too hard so they are lowered down a bit. In 2019, we were in a harder phase where the tests had just been made harder.

[Anonymous]

Part of the problem is that teaching is not a respected job in NOVA, even by many teachers. How could it be when teachers have access to so many other high-paying jobs? Why would you be a teacher when you could work for X, lower your stress, earn more money, and double your prestige?

Plus, there isn't the sense of community in NOVA like there is in other places. Families are always coming and going, moving in and out, there is less permanency to the whole thing. Schooling can feel very disconnected as a whole.

Where we live now, there are three parent-teacher conferences for K-12 during the school year. Three, not only one like in FCPS. If your child is failing, you receive a print out up to the minute of your child's grades on all assignments, well before the quarter ends. There is a sense of community, and the teachers work with the parents, there is a "it takes a village" mentality around education that I never felt in NOVA and we were there for more than ten years in that system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem is that teaching is not a respected job in NOVA, even by many teachers. How could it be when teachers have access to so many other high-paying jobs? Why would you be a teacher when you could work for X, lower your stress, earn more money, and double your prestige?

Plus, there isn't the sense of community in NOVA like there is in other places. Families are always coming and going, moving in and out, there is less permanency to the whole thing. Schooling can feel very disconnected as a whole.

Where we live now, there are three parent-teacher conferences for K-12 during the school year. Three, not only one like in FCPS. If your child is failing, you receive a print out up to the minute of your child's grades on all assignments, well before the quarter ends. There is a sense of community, and the teachers work with the parents, there is a "it takes a village" mentality around education that I never felt in NOVA and we were there for more than ten years in that system.

A big problem in NOVA not just the size of the area but the county wide school districts. I assume where you live now is smaller? It's easier to build community when districts are town based or the like. I wish we could break FCPS into smaller districts -- even just north and south or east and west. It's not possible to please such a large area with such a wide range of interests and concerns.

I think people getting called back to the office will help the teacher shortage a bit. When most people are working from home full time, it's hard to to sell a job that requires people to be in by a certain time every day with zero flexibility. If 100% work from home jobs become more rare, people who feel called to be educators will be more likely to choose (or return to) that option. It's not like offices and corporate environments don't have their share of stress, toxic politics, micromanaging bosses, and other BS. People were just being shielded from all that by being allowed to work from home. If we care about the school systems and education in this country we should stop advocating for so much remote work. It pulls teachers out of the profession.

[Anonymous]

Fcps does not have any teacher parent conferences anymore. They are all by request only. Another fcps fail

[Anonymous]

I don’t think the answer is doing away with telework for everyone… there are no incentives to being a teacher. Perhaps they should sweeten the pot. A free education would help. So would higher salaries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
4. State Testing- just get rid of it already. It takes away from the students learning and puts pressure on teachers to only teach towards the test (this is what happens when you tie teacher raises and school funding to test scores). Let’s be honest- rich people care about it because the high test scores affect their property value. We don’t need to be making decisions about public education to benefit some rich people and their property values

What a thoughtful post. I agree with your concern, but would like to highlight one contradiction here:

State testing (SOL and VGA) are, for better or worse, the only place where students get at least some feedback that allows them and their parents to see how well they do with respect to their peers. This is because SOL results are publicly posted on the VDoE website and are uniformly administered throughout the state. This is unlike all other school assignments where the score, in addition to being provided without comments, is also opaque to the point of being meaningless.

I would actually like to see a system where students receive their SOL score as a letter grade, thus providing incentive for students to do well and not just for teachers that their students do well. Teaching to the test, btw, is not a bad thing as long as the test is good (the SOLs are perhaps a bit too watered down, given their express purpose of just testing the very basics). But let's have students master these basics first, as evidenced by tests, then teachers can stack all the other nice things they want to teach on top.

As a side note, standardized tests will also help members of underrepresented groups proportionally more, thus contributing to the political goals of some.

I don't know about their express purpose of just testing the very basics but the SOLs are not watered down and do not test just the very basics. They are tests of the standards - doing well means that the student has learned everything they are are supposed to have learned. The SOLs are not easy, basic tests. They also go in several-year cycles, for some years parents complain that they are too easy so they are raised up, then parents complain that they are too hard so they are lowered down a bit. In 2019, we were in a harder phase where the tests had just been made harder.

Unfortunately, this is not true.

"Virginia receives the “Honesty Challenged” designation for reporting state proficiency rates that exceed NAEP by 34 percentage points in fourth-grade reading and 36 percentage points in eighth-grade math. Moreover, at a time when most states around the country are closing their Honesty Gaps, Virginia’s increased in both subjects."

This is based on data collected by the federal government, btw, not some fringe group. Look at the maps provided by the National Center for Education Statistics: Virginia is the only state in the US where state proficiency standards are mapped below what the rest of the nation considers "basic proficiency." Translated, this means that a child who scores a 400 in Virginia's SOL may not even meet "basic proficiency" (the lowest of the federal standards) in other states (true for 4th and 8th grade reading).

If you lower the bar by more than one standard error, your proficiency rates go through the roof - but they are meaningless, of course.

[Anonymous]

I teach HS science and saw about 90 students today. I asked how many wanted to be a teacher and not a single hand went up. I asked them why not and they just started laughing because they know what the job requires, but they continue to joke around and hold side conversations, play on phones, watch cartoons on laptops they are "using to see the notes better", etc. I had multiple students write passes to the bathroom today only to be gone for 20 minutes, out of a 90 min period. I don't have time to write emails to parents about behavior that, despite parents speaking with their students, does not change. I actually had a student today take a phone back off of my desk after I confiscated it while my back was turned. I'm one of the teachers kids say they really want to get for my subject. I still get incredible levels of disrespect every day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fcps does not have any teacher parent conferences anymore. They are all by request only. Another fcps fail

You mean in MS and HS? That would take way too long. In ES, my kids still have them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I teach HS science and saw about 90 students today. I asked how many wanted to be a teacher and not a single hand went up. I asked them why not and they just started laughing because they know what the job requires, but they continue to joke around and hold side conversations, play on phones, watch cartoons on laptops they are "using to see the notes better", etc. I had multiple students write passes to the bathroom today only to be gone for 20 minutes, out of a 90 min period. I don't have time to write emails to parents about behavior that, despite parents speaking with their students, does not change. I actually had a student today take a phone back off of my desk after I confiscated it while my back was turned. I'm one of the teachers kids say they really want to get for my subject. I still get incredible levels of disrespect every day.

This is why I quit teaching. The love I have of teaching is not worth the negative behaviors, extra workload, etc.

[Anonymous]

One of the reasons that teachers don't give feedback anymore is due to SIS. I'm a HS teacher and also a HS parent. SIS has helped in so many ways -- students learn responsibility to monitor their grades, parents have 24/7 access to their kids' grades, teachers don't have to have "mini-conferences" (remember those?) just to tell parents that their kid is doing fine. But that means students check their SIS several times daily. Many parents do, too (ahem).

Academics devolves into a situation where the grade is the only concept that matters. It doesn't matter if you learned something, just how you are doing in SIS.

[Anonymous]

I need a better profession. Teachers make a lot more than I do. Maybe they should open it up more. I actually know a lot of people that want to get into the field, but they don't want to do all the training that goes along with it. They all want to be subs or assistants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I need a better profession. Teachers make a lot more than I do. Maybe they should open it up more. I actually know a lot of people that want to get into the field, but they don't want to do all the training that goes along with it. They all want to be subs or assistants.

It's pretty open right now, especially middle and high school. Those trainings are mandatory for teachers every year, so I do them too, not just new teachers. I make a little over 60k and finishing up year 8. Don't have a Masters and I don't see the return on investment for getting one at this point.