What colleges are the rest of TJ students (not in the top 20%) going?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No mention of SLACs here. I know they're not known for STEM but I would imagine that would love TJ kids. Doesn't anyone want to study econ at Williams or Middlebury etc ? I'm sure there are plenty of parents who can afford these schools.

Many SLACs are very good at STEM and in fact have a significantly higher percentage of students graduating with STEM degrees than larger universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No mention of SLACs here. I know they're not known for STEM but I would imagine that would love TJ kids. Doesn't anyone want to study econ at Williams or Middlebury etc ? I'm sure there are plenty of parents who can afford these schools.

Many SLACs are very good at STEM and in fact have a significantly higher percentage of students graduating with STEM degrees than larger universities.

There are a handful of TJ kids who matriculate at SLACs every year. They are usually some of the school's finest graduates and end up with VERY strong post-college outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No mention of SLACs here. I know they're not known for STEM but I would imagine that would love TJ kids. Doesn't anyone want to study econ at Williams or Middlebury etc ? I'm sure there are plenty of parents who can afford these schools.

Many SLACs are very good at STEM and in fact have a significantly higher percentage of students graduating with STEM degrees than larger universities.

There are a handful of TJ kids who matriculate at SLACs every year. They are usually some of the school's finest graduates and end up with VERY strong post-college outcomes.

Although it is not technically a SLAC, William and Mary shares characteristics with SLACs and gets quite a few students from TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

What? That's so racist. Asian students are not the one dimensional prep robots that you seem to think. If you look at any elite musical ensembles, they're dominated by Asian students. Certain sports have a decent number of Asian participants. If Asian students had applications otherwise lacking in heft, elite colleges wouldn't need to create a 'personality' score and ding them on that to deny admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

What? That's so racist. Asian students are not the one dimensional prep robots that you seem to think. If you look at any elite musical ensembles, they're dominated by Asian students. Certain sports have a decent number of Asian participants. If Asian students had applications otherwise lacking in heft, elite colleges wouldn't need to create a 'personality' score and ding them on that to deny admissions.

PP. My statement did not come from any sort of racial animus, but from experience in application evaluation.

Your point about "any elite musical ensembles" is false. It is true only with respect to orchestras. Bands and choirs do not generally have high representation of Asian students. Furthermore, those orchestras overwhelmingly are dominated by East and Southeast Asian students, rather than South Asian. It is a matter of some note in college admissions circles that participation in orchestra is typical of East Asian applicants and is not generally a separator except in cases of national-level participation.

Certain sports do indeed have a decent number of Asian participants. For the most part, those are sports which are individual in nature - tennis, table tennis, and badminton are those most frequently observed. With the exception of recruitable athletes, participation in individual sports is not looked on as kindly in the admissions process as participation in team sports, for reasons that should be fairly obvious. If they're not, I'm happy to explain.

The students who are admitted to elite schools receive that honor because it is in the best interest of the school that they receive it. It's not the job of the admissions team to find "the best students" and admit them to the school - it's to admit the group of students as a collective who are most likely to raise the profile of the school - to inspire greater application numbers and greater levels of private investment.

Parents who wish to augment their child's chances at admission to elite colleges and universities would do well to understand that and significantly adjust their approaches to their children's education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No mention of SLACs here. I know they're not known for STEM but I would imagine that would love TJ kids. Doesn't anyone want to study econ at Williams or Middlebury etc ? I'm sure there are plenty of parents who can afford these schools.

Many SLACs are very good at STEM and in fact have a significantly higher percentage of students graduating with STEM degrees than larger universities.

There are a handful of TJ kids who matriculate at SLACs every year. They are usually some of the school's finest graduates and end up with VERY strong post-college outcomes.

Although it is not technically a SLAC, William and Mary shares characteristics with SLACs and gets quite a few students from TJ.

Honestly, W&M is sort of thought of by TJ students and parents as a SLAC. It is a very attractive option for mid-level students from TJ who either were not admitted to UVa or who prefer a quieter atmosphere with a more intimate social atmosphere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

What? That's so racist. Asian students are not the one dimensional prep robots that you seem to think. If you look at any elite musical ensembles, they're dominated by Asian students. Certain sports have a decent number of Asian participants. If Asian students had applications otherwise lacking in heft, elite colleges wouldn't need to create a 'personality' score and ding them on that to deny admissions.

PP. My statement did not come from any sort of racial animus, but from experience in application evaluation.

Your point about "any elite musical ensembles" is false. It is true only with respect to orchestras. Bands and choirs do not generally have high representation of Asian students. Furthermore, those orchestras overwhelmingly are dominated by East and Southeast Asian students, rather than South Asian. It is a matter of some note in college admissions circles that participation in orchestra is typical of East Asian applicants and is not generally a separator except in cases of national-level participation.

Certain sports do indeed have a decent number of Asian participants. For the most part, those are sports which are individual in nature - tennis, table tennis, and badminton are those most frequently observed. With the exception of recruitable athletes, participation in individual sports is not looked on as kindly in the admissions process as participation in team sports, for reasons that should be fairly obvious. If they're not, I'm happy to explain.

The students who are admitted to elite schools receive that honor because it is in the best interest of the school that they receive it. It's not the job of the admissions team to find "the best students" and admit them to the school - it's to admit the group of students as a collective who are most likely to raise the profile of the school - to inspire greater application numbers and greater levels of private investment.

Parents who wish to augment their child's chances at admission to elite colleges and universities would do well to understand that and significantly adjust their approaches to their children's education.

Tough pill to swallow but pp is absolutely spot on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

What? That's so racist. Asian students are not the one dimensional prep robots that you seem to think. If you look at any elite musical ensembles, they're dominated by Asian students. Certain sports have a decent number of Asian participants. If Asian students had applications otherwise lacking in heft, elite colleges wouldn't need to create a 'personality' score and ding them on that to deny admissions.

PP. My statement did not come from any sort of racial animus, but from experience in application evaluation.

Your point about "any elite musical ensembles" is false. It is true only with respect to orchestras. Bands and choirs do not generally have high representation of Asian students. Furthermore, those orchestras overwhelmingly are dominated by East and Southeast Asian students, rather than South Asian. It is a matter of some note in college admissions circles that participation in orchestra is typical of East Asian applicants and is not generally a separator except in cases of national-level participation.

Certain sports do indeed have a decent number of Asian participants. For the most part, those are sports which are individual in nature - tennis, table tennis, and badminton are those most frequently observed. With the exception of recruitable athletes, participation in individual sports is not looked on as kindly in the admissions process as participation in team sports, for reasons that should be fairly obvious. If they're not, I'm happy to explain.

The students who are admitted to elite schools receive that honor because it is in the best interest of the school that they receive it. It's not the job of the admissions team to find "the best students" and admit them to the school - it's to admit the group of students as a collective who are most likely to raise the profile of the school - to inspire greater application numbers and greater levels of private investment.

Parents who wish to augment their child's chances at admission to elite colleges and universities would do well to understand that and significantly adjust their approaches to their children's education.

Tough pill to swallow but pp is absolutely spot on.

And none of it will likely be legally defensible when the Supreme Court rulings on Harvard and UNC are issued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

Admissions officers were specifically downgrading the personality scores of Asian applicants. It wasn't the people who interviewed them that gave the low scores, it was the admissions office.
The colleges could do a race blind admissions, if they really want to claim that they are not discriminating against Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve seen impressive admission stats of the top TJ graduates. But I want to know what colleges the rest of the students (the middle 50%, the bottom 25%) are going. Would they have fared better admission wise if they stayed at their home schools, assuming they’d be bigger fish in a smaller pond?

I have heard good number going to Purdue and Univ of Michigan

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

Most colleges only want a few one-dimensional test-taking automatons. I don't know why people can't see this but keep insisting on molding their kids this way.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

Admissions officers were specifically downgrading the personality scores of Asian applicants. It wasn't the people who interviewed them that gave the low scores, it was the admissions office.
The colleges could do a race blind admissions, if they really want to claim that they are not discriminating against Asians.

This. If the Asian applicants truly had applications "otherwise lacking in heft," there would have been no reason to assign low personality scores. They would have been rightfully passed over for more qualified candidates. The exact same thing happened to Jewish applicants, back when elite colleges thought they had too many Jewish students. Kids were artificially downgraded in 'personality,' just to tip the scales in favor of non Jewish applicants who were otherwise less qualified.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Last year had UVA (49), W&M (26), VA Tech (7), VCU (10), GMU (10).
I think the middle of the road kids get shut out at UVA and VA Tech and go to OOS schools - Purdue, UIUC, Michigan etc

So you are saying VT only had 7 because they largely didn't admit TJ students?

This is a big change from a generation ago. I'm a late-90s TJ grad and my memory is that about 100 people went to UVA, a quarter of the class. Another huge chunk went to VT too. I wonder when the UVa numbers dropped?

Probably when the rest of VA started complaining!

A much higher percentage of TJ students now go OOS.

Are they going OOS by choice?

In 2011, 193 reported they are attending UVA, W&M, and VT. In 2022, that number had declined to 82, a decline of 58%, with each school down by more than 50%. You can say it is because they are more selective, but I suspect some other dynamic is in play. I don't think the same decline is happening at other NoVa schools.

It's because the caliber of TJ students wasn't the same by 2022. The student body was more homogenous and with all the entrance exams favoring prep over ability there were fewer gifted students.

I think it's less that the caliber of TJ students had declined so much as it is that they were too similar, to your second point. It doesn't do UVA or any other elite school any favors to admit a bunch of kids who all look the same on paper and who are trying to accomplish the same goals through the same means. That's bad for business.

There have always been students at TJ who follow the relatively rigid model of (maximize math advancement) + (maximize AP classes) + (focus exclusively on STEM ECs) + (layer in something like Model UN or Debate) + (compete in national level STEM events) in order to optimize their college application. Those students did a lot better in the admissions game when there were 50 in every class instead of 250.

An amusing phenomenon at TJ is whenever a kid announces that they've been accepted to an Ivy or a Duke or a Stanford or an MIT, immediately they get hundreds of friend requests and follows with DMs asking them how they did it. You then have hundreds of TJ kids who are trying to follow the same path, only to be disappointed when they learn that there's no value for the college in admitting 100 carbon copies of the same kid with the same resume as the one they already took.

For years kids were convinced that Crew was the magic secret to getting into an Ivy because a couple of kids a dozen years ago got in as recruited athletes when they had (for TJ) relatively weak scores and GPAs. But those kids were 6'7 and could pull an erg faster than anyone in the area. That same logic doesn't help a 5'6 kid with no muscle tone get to Princeton.

That sounds like the sorry defense of making Asians have much higher stats, etc. than other groups to be admitted.

The defense of making Asians have much higher stats than other groups to be admitted is that frequently, their stats are the strongest part of an application otherwise lacking in heft. Put differently, when the only reason you're getting in is because of your test scores, your test scores on average are going to be significantly higher than other admitted students who got in for other reasons.

This is to be expected when your community goes on message boards like this one and crows about sending their kids to extra enrichment sessions while poo-pooing other valuable uses of kids' time.

Admissions officers were specifically downgrading the personality scores of Asian applicants. It wasn't the people who interviewed them that gave the low scores, it was the admissions office.
The colleges could do a race blind admissions, if they really want to claim that they are not discriminating against Asians.

This. If the Asian applicants truly had applications "otherwise lacking in heft," there would have been no reason to assign low personality scores. They would have been rightfully passed over for more qualified candidates. The exact same thing happened to Jewish applicants, back when elite colleges thought they had too many Jewish students. Kids were artificially downgraded in 'personality,' just to tip the scales in favor of non Jewish applicants who were otherwise less qualified.

The evidence presented in the Harvard case showed all else being equal, Asian applicants had a significantly lower acceptance rate than other racial groups.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:No mention of SLACs here. I know they're not known for STEM but I would imagine that would love TJ kids. Doesn't anyone want to study econ at Williams or Middlebury etc ? I'm sure there are plenty of parents who can afford these schools.

Many SLACs are very good at STEM and in fact have a significantly higher percentage of students graduating with STEM degrees than larger universities.

There are a handful of TJ kids who matriculate at SLACs every year. They are usually some of the school's finest graduates and end up with VERY strong post-college outcomes.

Although it is not technically a SLAC, William and Mary shares characteristics with SLACs and gets quite a few students from TJ.

Honestly, W&M is sort of thought of by TJ students and parents as a SLAC. It is a very attractive option for mid-level students from TJ who either were not admitted to UVa or who prefer a quieter atmosphere with a more intimate social atmosphere.

W&M probably enrolls a higher percentage of TJ students in its incoming in most years compared compared to other universities, which is interesting.