Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?

[Anonymous]

Because pushing does not develop a work ethic. Reasonable expectations do but not “pushing” for the sake of pushing. The only thing I was ever pushed to do academically was math, and I never touched math again after Calculus BC. totally pointless and counterproductive.

[Anonymous]

Like everything, the best route is probably a middle ground. I do know what OP means; it seems like many people on here have strong reactions to any pushing whatsoever (and assume that parents are inappropriately pushing in may circumstances, e.g., simply because a child is in a travel sport). We have friends who sign their kids up for swimming lessons, the kids don't like it, and they let them off the hook. Or friends who let their kids constantly drop out of things soon after they start. I personally feel that kids do need some pushing - I think it's hard for anyone to really know if they like something until they give it a legitimate try (like ice skating, it's hard and painful at first, you have to give it some time). I also think there are many times when it's ok to push a kid to do their best, set expectations, etc. But, of course there should be balance - no one wants a crazy parent. My impression is that most parents are somewhere in the middle, and are generally within range of what is good, solid parenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, so there's a thin line between pushing and pushing too hard. Where do you think that line is? I don't think I'm anywhere close to it, at least compared to the parents around me (travel sports parents are the most aggressive when it comes to pushing IME). But how did you realize that you pushed too hard instead of appropriately? Did your own kids tell you? IMO kids are not the best judges of whether our parenting was appropriate or not.


How do you know? Pay attention to your kids. Some kids will tell you they don't want to do it anymore. Other kids will drag their feet and complain. Some kids erupt and get emotional. I was a crier. When I couldn't take it anymore, I burst into tears. I was put in the higher math class in MS and I kept up with the pace until 8th grade. The teacher yelled at me and I burst into tears. I went to the principal who had no issues with me moving down to the regular class. I felt immediate relief and was pretty pissed that I should've just asked to move way before I did.

If you kid asked to be put down a grade, would you do it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have four adult children of well above average intelligence and privilege. I did have high expectations of them, and in retrospect they were too high. My expectations didn't put their "mental health" at risk, but it did put our relationship at risk. I know what you're thinking -- that's a risk worth taking, because they'll thank you for pushing them when they're adults -- but you need to recognize that there's a thin line between pushing and pushing too hard.

If you push too hard, and your kid doesn't rise to your expectations, they're still likely to end up just fine as adults generally and mental health wise, but not think very well of you as a parent have a strained relationship with you. I'm lucky that that hasn't happened with me, but it easily could have, and it did happen with a lot my kids' friends and their parents.

Your kid is still young, OP. With the benefit of hindsight, I can tell you that most of things that you have outlined in your litany of expectations mean very little to adult success and happiness in the long run. Your strategy is high risk for low reward.

Of course, I don't expect that you'll actually listen to my advice or any of the other sound advice being offered here. Clearly, that's not why you're here.

OP here. Okay, so there's a thin line between pushing and pushing too hard. Where do you think that line is? I don't think I'm anywhere close to it, at least compared to the parents around me (travel sports parents are the most aggressive when it comes to pushing IME). But how did you realize that you pushed too hard instead of appropriately? Did your own kids tell you? IMO kids are not the best judges of whether our parenting was appropriate or not.

When you're fighting with your kid most of the time. When your relationship is one of constant conflict (or the threat of conflict or punishment). When your kid starts acting out, exhibiting symptoms of anxiety, self-harm, stress, depression. Kids find ways to tell you they are hurting -- when you can't hear them or aren't listening, you're pushing too hard. When you are doing all of the motivating with external rewards and punishments, and none of it is really coming from your kid. When your kid feels like your love and approval are conditional on them being a high achiever. When their goals are really just your goals. The thing is, you won't necessarily know if you were pushing too hard (or not enough, or in the wrong direction, or in the wrong way) in the moment. That's not how parenting works. You'll find out when your kid leaves home.

OP here. Right, we don't really know if what we're doing is correct. All we can go off of are our instincts and the results of the kids around us, which both show that pushing has more benefits than negatives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted this as a comment on another thread, but I think it's odd how many posters here are averse to pushing their kid and having them develop an amazing work ethic (the #1 key to success!) all because they're worried that they'll harm their fragile snowflake's "mental health."


I demand that my kid (who is of fairly average intelligence -- 110 IQ) take the most rigorous classes offered at their school (a "W" school), try their best to get straight As (so far successful except for 1 B sophomore year), participate in a sport, play an instrument, work a (crappy, minimum wage) summer job, and be active in community service. DC doesn't want to do any of this (they are naturally very lazy), but I push them academically and extracurricularly because it forms a well-rounded human being. Not for the sake of college admissions, not for the sake of impressing an AO, but for the sake of developing a work ethic that'll launch them into success in college and beyond. Too many Americans these days lack a strong work ethic.

And for some reason, the parents on here think that all of this will destroy my kid's mental health. The best thing you can do for your kid's mental health is to build grit and resilience, as well as normalize failure. That's why I demand that my kid try their best at activities that are naturally outside of their comfort zone. It seems as though this is a common approach to successful and well-rounded kids; the ones who are the healthiest and happiest in DC's friend group are the ones who are pushed by their parents to do things outside of their comfort zone while normalizing failure and not being the best at everything you do. And the ones in DC's friend group with the most mental health issues are the ones with coddling parents who try to shelter their kid from every potential failure while not pushing them to step outside of their comfort zone.

Did it work? Meaning, did the work ethic last past the time in which they are under your control (in college, there would be monetary control.)

OP here. DC is a rising HS senior, so only the future will tell. But what I do know is that NO ONE I know IRL has told me that they regret their parents pushing them -- it's only "I'm so grateful that my parents pushed me."

You are right, that's what they say. Instead, they say
"my father wanted me to be something I wasn't"
"I was never good enough for him"
"Dad only cared about what was on my resume, not what was in my head"
"There's a reason I don't come home more than once a year"
"He never listened to me; it was just directives and punishments"

This. I have absolutely heard people who think that they were never good enough for their parents, who are incredibly self-critical and talk about how hard their parents were on them, or who have strained, distant relationships with their parents. That is absolutely a thing. There are different kinds of pushing, but it's pretty clear that you are going to do what you want, and you're not really that interested in other views.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Work ethic is different than having the most rigorous course load. My daughter was an average student. Nothing I could do could change that, except for spending tons of money in tutors and we did for a little, but it added stress and she only marginally improved. Terrible test taker.

My daughter has strengths that outweigh a rigorous course load any day. She is punctual, articulate, speaks well with adults, and takes her job seriously and with pride. She takes care of her appearance. She is courteous to all. She is not lazy and very driven. Just because she didn’t take AP classes means nothing about work ethic or the drive to succeed.

+1000

Your daughter will go far in life. Letting her pick activities that support her desires/strengths will get her far in life. More to life than core academics. But many apparently don't recognize that and live vicariously thru their kids. Can't imagine raising my kids so that they grow up thinking they are a disappointment to me.

[Anonymous]

OP had her kid's IQ tested. That says it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work ethic is different than having the most rigorous course load. My daughter was an average student. Nothing I could do could change that, except for spending tons of money in tutors and we did for a little, but it added stress and she only marginally improved. Terrible test taker.

My daughter has strengths that outweigh a rigorous course load any day. She is punctual, articulate, speaks well with adults, and takes her job seriously and with pride. She takes care of her appearance. She is courteous to all. She is not lazy and very driven. Just because she didn’t take AP classes means nothing about work ethic or the drive to succeed.

Why do you think this is incompatiable with being an academic high achiever?

Its not, but some parents know their kids and recognize they are not ready for College level courses in 10th/11th and sometimes even 12th grade. Or certainly not ready for more than 1 each year. And that's OK! IF they are not ready, then pushing them will be detrimental long term (and short term)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP had her kid's IQ tested. That says it all.

But it's about work ethic! (Keep telling yourself that, OP.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted this as a comment on another thread, but I think it's odd how many posters here are averse to pushing their kid and having them develop an amazing work ethic (the #1 key to success!) all because they're worried that they'll harm their fragile snowflake's "mental health."


I demand that my kid (who is of fairly average intelligence -- 110 IQ) take the most rigorous classes offered at their school (a "W" school), try their best to get straight As (so far successful except for 1 B sophomore year), participate in a sport, play an instrument, work a (crappy, minimum wage) summer job, and be active in community service. DC doesn't want to do any of this (they are naturally very lazy), but I push them academically and extracurricularly because it forms a well-rounded human being. Not for the sake of college admissions, not for the sake of impressing an AO, but for the sake of developing a work ethic that'll launch them into success in college and beyond. Too many Americans these days lack a strong work ethic.

And for some reason, the parents on here think that all of this will destroy my kid's mental health. The best thing you can do for your kid's mental health is to build grit and resilience, as well as normalize failure. That's why I demand that my kid try their best at activities that are naturally outside of their comfort zone. It seems as though this is a common approach to successful and well-rounded kids; the ones who are the healthiest and happiest in DC's friend group are the ones who are pushed by their parents to do things outside of their comfort zone while normalizing failure and not being the best at everything you do. And the ones in DC's friend group with the most mental health issues are the ones with coddling parents who try to shelter their kid from every potential failure while not pushing them to step outside of their comfort zone.

Did it work? Meaning, did the work ethic last past the time in which they are under your control (in college, there would be monetary control.)

OP here. DC is a rising HS senior, so only the future will tell. But what I do know is that NO ONE I know IRL has told me that they regret their parents pushing them -- it's only "I'm so grateful that my parents pushed me."

This is so prole to me. I grew up with very very smart kids who never needed to be pushed. The two kids who were pushed and hounded relentlessly by their mothers ended up underachieving relative to their intelligence. If you’re smart and surrounded by an intellectual atmosphere, no pushing is required.

[Anonymous]

Pushing is a fine line. My daughter in middle school is very smart and capable of all As. She had two Bs this semester because she didn't turn homework in or complete a couple of assignments. I said that was not acceptable.

I'm OK with Bs if a subject was tough and she did her best. Getting Bs because she couldn't be bothered to turn in assignments is not OK. We are working on this for 8th grade. Follow through is a good life skill I think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, so there's a thin line between pushing and pushing too hard. Where do you think that line is? I don't think I'm anywhere close to it, at least compared to the parents around me (travel sports parents are the most aggressive when it comes to pushing IME). But how did you realize that you pushed too hard instead of appropriately? Did your own kids tell you? IMO kids are not the best judges of whether our parenting was appropriate or not.


How do you know? Pay attention to your kids. Some kids will tell you they don't want to do it anymore. Other kids will drag their feet and complain. Some kids erupt and get emotional. I was a crier. When I couldn't take it anymore, I burst into tears. I was put in the higher math class in MS and I kept up with the pace until 8th grade. The teacher yelled at me and I burst into tears. I went to the principal who had no issues with me moving down to the regular class. I felt immediate relief and was pretty pissed that I should've just asked to move way before I did.

If you kid asked to be put down a grade, would you do it?

Yes!! What's more important? A happy kid who is learning or one who is ahead but miserable and has other issues because of this? And might grow to hate math, whereas if they were moved back one level they might go on to love it. Life is not a race. I know plenty of PHD in science/math and people with MDs that were only slightly above average (not in any AP courses) in HS. They blossomed later.

[Anonymous]

I’m just not running the same race as OP. I’ve known plenty of accomplished people who were terrible humans. I’m raising kind and responsible people.

Also, next time maybe don’t put “mental health” in quotes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Like everything, the best route is probably a middle ground. I do know what OP means; it seems like many people on here have strong reactions to any pushing whatsoever (and assume that parents are inappropriately pushing in may circumstances, e.g., simply because a child is in a travel sport). We have friends who sign their kids up for swimming lessons, the kids don't like it, and they let them off the hook. Or friends who let their kids constantly drop out of things soon after they start. I personally feel that kids do need some pushing - I think it's hard for anyone to really know if they like something until they give it a legitimate try (like ice skating, it's hard and painful at first, you have to give it some time). I also think there are many times when it's ok to push a kid to do their best, set expectations, etc. But, of course there should be balance - no one wants a crazy parent. My impression is that most parents are somewhere in the middle, and are generally within range of what is good, solid parenting.

AHH I'm a figure skating parent here and I do agree you shouldn't let your kids bail out of *everything* when they have a bad experience but I don't think ice skating is a good example. Maybe you are just using it as an analogy but I cringe so much when I parents make their kids skate when they are clearly in pain and miserable. I'm a pretty good skater and I start to get really uncomfortable after fifteen minutes and it downright hurts after twenty. The kids who do well in figure skating, the ones I know, are the ones who refuse to get off the ice when it gets uncomfortable. It's like they are having so into it they don't care about the pain. I've spoken to dozens of ice skating moms and we all agree that you absolutely cannot push figure skating. Some sports are truly painful and parents shouldn't push them (unless it's something like they have a lessons scheduled and don't want to wake up for it).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have four adult children of well above average intelligence and privilege. I did have high expectations of them, and in retrospect they were too high. My expectations didn't put their "mental health" at risk, but it did put our relationship at risk. I know what you're thinking -- that's a risk worth taking, because they'll thank you for pushing them when they're adults -- but you need to recognize that there's a thin line between pushing and pushing too hard.

If you push too hard, and your kid doesn't rise to your expectations, they're still likely to end up just fine as adults generally and mental health wise, but not think very well of you as a parent have a strained relationship with you. I'm lucky that that hasn't happened with me, but it easily could have, and it did happen with a lot my kids' friends and their parents.

Your kid is still young, OP. With the benefit of hindsight, I can tell you that most of things that you have outlined in your litany of expectations mean very little to adult success and happiness in the long run. Your strategy is high risk for low reward.

Of course, I don't expect that you'll actually listen to my advice or any of the other sound advice being offered here. Clearly, that's not why you're here.

OP here. Okay, so there's a thin line between pushing and pushing too hard. Where do you think that line is? I don't think I'm anywhere close to it, at least compared to the parents around me (travel sports parents are the most aggressive when it comes to pushing IME). But how did you realize that you pushed too hard instead of appropriately? Did your own kids tell you? IMO kids are not the best judges of whether our parenting was appropriate or not.

When you're fighting with your kid most of the time. When your relationship is one of constant conflict (or the threat of conflict or punishment). When your kid starts acting out, exhibiting symptoms of anxiety, self-harm, stress, depression. Kids find ways to tell you they are hurting -- when you can't hear them or aren't listening, you're pushing too hard. When you are doing all of the motivating with external rewards and punishments, and none of it is really coming from your kid. When your kid feels like your love and approval are conditional on them being a high achiever. When their goals are really just your goals. The thing is, you won't necessarily know if you were pushing too hard (or not enough, or in the wrong direction, or in the wrong way) in the moment. That's not how parenting works. You'll find out when your kid leaves home.

OP here. Right, we don't really know if what we're doing is correct. All we can go off of are our instincts and the results of the kids around us, which both show that pushing has more benefits than negatives.

kids are people, not “results.”