Lia Thomas - Will this change college sports for women or a nothingburger?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not close to a record.

These are the NCAA women’s swimming records: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/swimming_rb/WomensSwimRecs.pdf

These are the meet results: https://gozips.com/documents/2021/12/3//2021_Zippy_Invite_friday_results.pdf?id=16731

Thompson’s 500 yard free style (4:34:06 ) was exactly 10 seconds slower than Ledckey’s (4:24.06).

Ledecky is a man too so void both?

Huh? It has never been alleged that Ledecky is a man.

[Anonymous]

Of course she is not. That poster is just insecure and intimidated with her prowess. She could probably squash every poster on here like a little bug.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/Transgender-UPenn-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-smashes-records-weekend-meets-14-SECONDS-ahead-rival.html

Twitter is going crazy about Lia Thomas’ record-setting performance last weekend. Do you think she is a unicorn and we should all just calm down or is it likely that women who were born male fundamentally change college sports and scholarships?

Not fundamentally because stories like this are exceedingly rare. But for the athletes in these particular swimming events, this is a difficult situation.

Exceedingly rare now, but wait 5-10 years. That is OP's whole point.

A "difficult situation?" That's the best you can do?

what do you want? My kid is not the strongest athlete in her sport. She competes hard. there was one transgender kid on the team who was not talented at all regardless of gender...which is typical. most people are not gifted athletes.

I don't think this is a common situation at all. That swimmer was transgender AND a good athlete. That is a rare combination.

The transgender males could have a physical disadvantage in sports competitions when trying to compete against male athletes. That is what it is.

I dont understand what you want? where are these people supposed to compete?

I find this very difficult. I don't know - maybe there are just some things that they don't get to do.

I don't think (many?) people will "fake it" to be more competitive (though past history with some countries tells me that might just be exactly what some do. So maybe, at the most elite levels, it's just one of those things that you simply don't get to do. Oh well. Life goes on.

And this is basically what it boils down to. And I agree with it. Not everyone is entitled to do anything they want, in any way they want, in any circumstance. But in todays climate, many are bending over backwards to ensure that this is the case. I’m not so sure this is the “good thing” that some think it is.

+100 Completely agree. And once again it is women who are being trampled on.

[Anonymous]

If you are for women's rights, I believe you should be screaming from the mountain tops. This is so very wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are for women's rights, I believe you should be screaming from the mountain tops. This is so very wrong.

Amen

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are for women's rights, I believe you should be screaming from the mountain tops. This is so very wrong.

It is not quite that simple. Its going to be incredibly hard (if not impossible) to preserve women's sports while at the same time respecting trans rights.

The paralympic analogy above is interesting. I wonder if they could move trans athletes to the paraolympics? The IOC has done a ton of work raising the profile of the Paralympic competition and this could be a win-win-win for everyone? Women who were born as women get to compete against each other, trans athletes get to compete and compete against other. AND differently abled athletes get their games to have an even wider audience?

NOTE - the differences between the Paralympics and special Olympics are CRITICAL to understand.

From: https://www.paralympic.org/frequently-asked-questions

How are the Paralympic Games different from the Special Olympics?

The Paralympics and the Special Olympics are similar in that they both focus on sport for athletes with an impairment and are run by international non-profit organisations. Apart from that, the Paralympics and the Special Olympics differ in three main areas:

1) the impairment categories of the athletes that they work with

2) the criteria under which athletes participate

3) the structure of their respective organisations.

The Paralympics, as the largest sports competition for athletes with an impairment worldwide, involve athletes from several impairment categories. The six main disability categories are: amputee, cerebral palsy, intellectual impairment, visually impaired, spinal injuries and Les Autres (French for "the others", a category that includes conditions that do not fall into the categories mentioned before). In contrast, the Special Olympics are solely for athletes with intellectual impairment.

To participate in the Paralympic Games, athletes have to fulfil certain criteria and meet certain qualifying standards in order to be eligible. These criteria and standards are sports-specific and are determined by the IPC Sports Chairpersons, the Sports Technical Delegates and the relevant international sports organisations.

The Paralympics are about elite performance sport, where athletes go through a stringent qualification process so that the best can compete at the Games.

On the other hand, the Special Olympics does not make as clear a distinction between elite and recreational sport as the Paralympics. No qualifying events are held and there is instead a system of random selection of participants for the Special Olympics. Thus, while the Paralympics emphasises high-level performance, the Special Olympics emphasises participation from those who can and will.

The Paralympics are run by the International Paralympic Committee (IPC). As the international representative organisation of sport for athletes with a disability, the IPC comprises elected representatives from around the world. The General Assembly, its highest decision-making body, includes around 180 member nations, represented through their National Paralympic Committees, and five disability-specific organisations. The Special Olympics are run by Special Olympics International (SOI). SOI has established national foundations around the world, which are financed mainly through charity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of course she is not. That poster is just insecure and intimidated with her prowess. She could probably squash every poster on here like a little bug.

I think maybe the point trying to be made was that Thomas isn't faster/advantaged compared to the very best (Ledecky).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course she is not. That poster is just insecure and intimidated with her prowess. She could probably squash every poster on here like a little bug.

I think maybe the point trying to be made was that Thomas isn't faster/advantaged compared to the very best (Ledecky).

Thomas is not special enough of an athlete to compete at that level. Even the trans weightlifter that went to the Olympics was not able to place in any event.

[Anonymous]

I saw a potential solution suggested on Facebook that might work for a sport like swimming. There could be an "open" or "mixed" category (which already exists at certain meets in USA swimming and US Masters swimming) that would include all biologically born men and trans women, and even biologically born women if they wish to compete in that category (someone like Ledecky could certainly hang). Maybe trans could be a special subcategory within the open/mixed category. Then a "biologically born female" category that is just for cis gender women. This would allow a trans athlete to be themselves and compete, without giving a potentially unfair advantage over biologically born women in terms of scoring and records. If someone is transitioning because they truly feel like they are in the wrong body, winning and breaking records is probably a secondary concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are for women's rights, I believe you should be screaming from the mountain tops. This is so very wrong.

Preach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I saw a potential solution suggested on Facebook that might work for a sport like swimming. There could be an "open" or "mixed" category (which already exists at certain meets in USA swimming and US Masters swimming) that would include all biologically born men and trans women, and even biologically born women if they wish to compete in that category (someone like Ledecky could certainly hang). Maybe trans could be a special subcategory within the open/mixed category. Then a "biologically born female" category that is just for cis gender women. This would allow a trans athlete to be themselves and compete, without giving a potentially unfair advantage over biologically born women in terms of scoring and records. If someone is transitioning because they truly feel like they are in the wrong body, winning and breaking records is probably a secondary concern.

I think this trans category would be very tiny - maybe a swimmer sometimes in a few events...maybe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw a potential solution suggested on Facebook that might work for a sport like swimming. There could be an "open" or "mixed" category (which already exists at certain meets in USA swimming and US Masters swimming) that would include all biologically born men and trans women, and even biologically born women if they wish to compete in that category (someone like Ledecky could certainly hang). Maybe trans could be a special subcategory within the open/mixed category. Then a "biologically born female" category that is just for cis gender women. This would allow a trans athlete to be themselves and compete, without giving a potentially unfair advantage over biologically born women in terms of scoring and records. If someone is transitioning because they truly feel like they are in the wrong body, winning and breaking records is probably a secondary concern.

I think this trans category would be very tiny - maybe a swimmer sometimes in a few events...maybe.

Seems like a lot for a situation that would arise very rarely but if the swimming organizations want to do that that, ok I guess.

A small fraction - less than one percent of the population is trans and a only a fraction of that is female trans and only a fraction of that has any interest in athletics and only a fraction of that would actually have any athletic talent at all and only a fraction of that would have enough talent to be competitive.....just not very many people to cause all this intense hand wringing. Can't we spend our time and energy on more substantial problems?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are for women's rights, I believe you should be screaming from the mountain tops. This is so very wrong.

Amen

There are very few things I can think of to at are more privileged than a grown white man deciding hey, I’m trans, I’m now going to be a woman, call mr a woman, I’m biologically a woman, now I’m going to switch to the woman’s swimming category and you can’t stop me, it’s my right.

This person didn’t grow up a girl, have her period, get a pregnancy scare, get pregnant, have a baby, deal with cramps, etc. I don’t have any issue with her wanting to be called Lisa, dress how she wants, use whatever pronouns she wants, however she wants to live her life. But I do take issue with her suddenly demanding all rights that biological women have had to fight for since the beginning of time. And I have a MTF sibling. She’s great, I love her, but she was in shock with the double standard placed on women and was just expecting life to be the same but in different clothes. She just thinks that at 35 she can start wearing women’s clothes and grow out her hair and “truly understand what it’s like to be a woman”. Huh?!

[Anonymous]

Just another anti-trans post that once again got the anti-trans poster completely caught out lying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are for women's rights, I believe you should be screaming from the mountain tops. This is so very wrong.

It is not quite that simple. Its going to be incredibly hard (if not impossible) to preserve women's sports while at the same time respecting trans rights.

The paralympic analogy above is interesting. I wonder if they could move trans athletes to the paraolympics? The IOC has done a ton of work raising the profile of the Paralympic competition and this could be a win-win-win for everyone? Women who were born as women get to compete against each other, trans athletes get to compete and compete against other. AND differently abled athletes get their games to have an even wider audience?

NOTE - the differences between the Paralympics and special Olympics are CRITICAL to understand.

From: https://www.paralympic.org/frequently-asked-questions

How are the Paralympic Games different from the Special Olympics?

The Paralympics and the Special Olympics are similar in that they both focus on sport for athletes with an impairment and are run by international non-profit organisations. Apart from that, the Paralympics and the Special Olympics differ in three main areas:

1) the impairment categories of the athletes that they work with

2) the criteria under which athletes participate

3) the structure of their respective organisations.

The Paralympics, as the largest sports competition for athletes with an impairment worldwide, involve athletes from several impairment categories. The six main disability categories are: amputee, cerebral palsy, intellectual impairment, visually impaired, spinal injuries and Les Autres (French for "the others", a category that includes conditions that do not fall into the categories mentioned before). In contrast, the Special Olympics are solely for athletes with intellectual impairment.

To participate in the Paralympic Games, athletes have to fulfil certain criteria and meet certain qualifying standards in order to be eligible. These criteria and standards are sports-specific and are determined by the IPC Sports Chairpersons, the Sports Technical Delegates and the relevant international sports organisations.

The Paralympics are about elite performance sport, where athletes go through a stringent qualification process so that the best can compete at the Games.

On the other hand, the Special Olympics does not make as clear a distinction between elite and recreational sport as the Paralympics. No qualifying events are held and there is instead a system of random selection of participants for the Special Olympics. Thus, while the Paralympics emphasises high-level performance, the Special Olympics emphasises participation from those who can and will.

The Paralympics are run by the International Paralympic Committee (IPC). As the international representative organisation of sport for athletes with a disability, the IPC comprises elected representatives from around the world. The General Assembly, its highest decision-making body, includes around 180 member nations, represented through their National Paralympic Committees, and five disability-specific organisations. The Special Olympics are run by Special Olympics International (SOI). SOI has established national foundations around the world, which are financed mainly through charity.

Since when do trans have "rights" that come at the expense of other people's?