I have a question about the Taylor Swift/Kanye West situation

[Anonymous]

I understand that Taylor initially lied or at least shaded the truth about the original phone call. He obviously did call her to discuss the lyric "have sex with" and ask her opinion on it and she just as obviously ok'd that line. She should not have done that and I hope she apologizes. So let's not rehash that part of the story, ok?


What I wonder is why people are acting like Taylor had no right to take issue with the insertion of the words "that bitch" into the next line. Maybe those words turned something that could have been funny and tongue in cheek to her into something she heard as mean spirited and disrespectful. I guess what I'm wondering is why people are acting like it's NOT misogynistic and hurtful to call women bitches? Just because it's common place in rap songs doesn't mean it's right or defensible. That's the part I'm not getting.

[Anonymous]

I truly believe this is manufactured drama. They all have handlers and publicists. I am sure there is a machine manufacturing their image including Kanye being a bully and innocent Taylor being hurt by it.

[Anonymous]

It's a publicity stunt. His song only went to 34 on Billboard. Kimye wanted it to go to #1, it didn't.

[Anonymous]

I guess what I'm wondering is why people are acting like it's NOT misogynistic and hurtful to call women bitches? Just because it's common place in rap songs doesn't mean it's right or defensible. That's the part I'm not getting.


Of course. But you know how people loooove to build a celebrity up only to tear them down eventually. This pile on has almost nothing to do with the facts of the actual situation; it's just a convenient opportunity to hate on her. Taylor was the awkward teen everyone loved and related to who suddenly became super famous with hot boyfriends and beautiful friends and her former fans hate her for it. People look at her life (like her #Taymerica party and her new relationship with a celebrated actor) and are jealous so now they will rip her up over any stupid thing. It's pathetic and gross.

[Anonymous]

I was explaining the feud to my DH last night. At one point I had to stop myself and admit I was embarrassed I knew as much as I did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I guess what I'm wondering is why people are acting like it's NOT misogynistic and hurtful to call women bitches? Just because it's common place in rap songs doesn't mean it's right or defensible. That's the part I'm not getting.


Of course. But you know how people loooove to build a celebrity up only to tear them down eventually. This pile on has almost nothing to do with the facts of the actual situation; it's just a convenient opportunity to hate on her. Taylor was the awkward teen everyone loved and related to who suddenly became super famous with hot boyfriends and beautiful friends and her former fans hate her for it. People look at her life (like her #Taymerica party and her new relationship with a celebrated actor) and are jealous so now they will rip her up over any stupid thing. It's pathetic and gross.

I think this is true too but I also think Taylor should have expected something like this and toned her act down a bit. Her paling around with famous models etc. was a bit over the top. She herself used to hate on the popular cheerleader types (see "You Belong with Me" "Better at Revenge" etc. etc.) so when she in effect became the ultimate prom queen, she ought to have realized this animosity toward her would build and eventually pop. It puzzles me somewhat that she didn't expect something like this to happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was explaining the feud to my DH last night. At one point I had to stop myself and admit I was embarrassed I knew as much as I did.

Lol. It is embarrassing to know so much about it but I'm a "Swiftie" (or so I've been told) and, while I like a lot of Kanye's work - I really dislike the way he treats and talks about women. The VMA stunt left a lasting impression I guess...and his new music video is awful on so many levels. Plus - Kim, ugh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I guess what I'm wondering is why people are acting like it's NOT misogynistic and hurtful to call women bitches? Just because it's common place in rap songs doesn't mean it's right or defensible. That's the part I'm not getting.


Of course. But you know how people loooove to build a celebrity up only to tear them down eventually. This pile on has almost nothing to do with the facts of the actual situation; it's just a convenient opportunity to hate on her. Taylor was the awkward teen everyone loved and related to who suddenly became super famous with hot boyfriends and beautiful friends and her former fans hate her for it. People look at her life (like her #Taymerica party and her new relationship with a celebrated actor) and are jealous so now they will rip her up over any stupid thing. It's pathetic and gross.

+ 1

I think this is what is really all about too.

[Anonymous]

I don't like the way West calls women bitches. It's gross and insulting, and it's a problem throughout rap music. Kim said she's not insulted by it but I don't get that. I can even understand that adding in calling someone a bitch would totally change the meaning of the lyric for Swift (even though that is maybe a white girl reaction and possibly not what West meant).

Even so, for me, the problem is still Taylor Swift's Grammy speech, which was entirely under Swift's own control. Swift said that other people would try to take credit for your fame and for your work, but if you stay strong you'll show that it's all because of YOU and the people who love you blah blah blah.

If her problem with the lyric was really being called a bitch, she should have made her Grammy speech about rampant misogyny in the music industry or in song lyrics, or about "friends" who stab you in the back, or BETTER YET just say thank you and get off the stage and have her people have her beef out with Kanye in private. But when she had had a phone call with West where she said she understood that to West it seemed like he made her famous because he didn't know her before he interrupted her, even though she had sold 7 million albums already, it was very wrong and victim-y to complain about him taking credit for her fame when she had told him that she understood his POV and it didn't bother her.

That combined with other victim-y posturing on her part, like her representatives making it seem like maybe Harris had not given her proper credit for writing his hit song, the Bad Blood song and all her other breakup songs where she is the poor wronged innocent girl just trying to do the right thing all the time when crazy mean people come along and wreak havoc on her life -- if you rip the curtain back and Swift is actually much more savvy than she is letting on (which is how it seems on the phone call when she talks about being close to overexposure and being mature enough not to be insulted or freaked out that West was writing about having sex with her), then we, the people who have believed her til now, start to feel like we've been played.

I don't like the lyric. West shouldn't have called Swift a bitch. But that's not news because rappers have been calling women bitches forever. It's certainly news that innocent Taylor Swift would not have had a problem with West writing about his potential for having sex with her in the future if West HADN'T called her a bitch. That certainly does not comport with the Taylor Swift image that has existed til now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I guess what I'm wondering is why people are acting like it's NOT misogynistic and hurtful to call women bitches? Just because it's common place in rap songs doesn't mean it's right or defensible. That's the part I'm not getting.


Of course. But you know how people loooove to build a celebrity up only to tear them down eventually. This pile on has almost nothing to do with the facts of the actual situation; it's just a convenient opportunity to hate on her. Taylor was the awkward teen everyone loved and related to who suddenly became super famous with hot boyfriends and beautiful friends and her former fans hate her for it. People look at her life (like her #Taymerica party and her new relationship with a celebrated actor) and are jealous so now they will rip her up over any stupid thing. It's pathetic and gross.

I think this is true too but I also think Taylor should have expected something like this and toned her act down a bit. Her paling around with famous models etc. was a bit over the top. She herself used to hate on the popular cheerleader types (see "You Belong with Me" "Better at Revenge" etc. etc.) so when she in effect became the ultimate prom queen, she ought to have realized this animosity toward her would build and eventually pop. It puzzles me somewhat that she didn't expect something like this to happen.

Hmm, she's done what it's taken to cross over from country to pop. She's adjusted her image as she's matured - and it has brought her enormous success. She's gone from being the gawky, wide eyed kid next door to being the strong, beautiful, in charge woman that we see today.

I do think it's time for her to tone it down a notch or two. It seems like she's taking a break now which is overdue for her. She needs to chill, regroup and refocus on her work and stop the drama.

[Anonymous]

Please don't get these people going. They clog up this forum and the recent topics with this nonsense about people they don't know who don't matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't like the way West calls women bitches. It's gross and insulting, and it's a problem throughout rap music. Kim said she's not insulted by it but I don't get that. I can even understand that adding in calling someone a bitch would totally change the meaning of the lyric for Swift (even though that is maybe a white girl reaction and possibly not what West meant).

Even so, for me, the problem is still Taylor Swift's Grammy speech, which was entirely under Swift's own control. Swift said that other people would try to take credit for your fame and for your work, but if you stay strong you'll show that it's all because of YOU and the people who love you blah blah blah.

If her problem with the lyric was really being called a bitch, she should have made her Grammy speech about rampant misogyny in the music industry or in song lyrics, or about "friends" who stab you in the back, or BETTER YET just say thank you and get off the stage and have her people have her beef out with Kanye in private. But when she had had a phone call with West where she said she understood that to West it seemed like he made her famous because he didn't know her before he interrupted her, even though she had sold 7 million albums already, it was very wrong and victim-y to complain about him taking credit for her fame when she had told him that she understood his POV and it didn't bother her.

That combined with other victim-y posturing on her part, like her representatives making it seem like maybe Harris had not given her proper credit for writing his hit song, the Bad Blood song and all her other breakup songs where she is the poor wronged innocent girl just trying to do the right thing all the time when crazy mean people come along and wreak havoc on her life -- if you rip the curtain back and Swift is actually much more savvy than she is letting on (which is how it seems on the phone call when she talks about being close to overexposure and being mature enough not to be insulted or freaked out that West was writing about having sex with her), then we, the people who have believed her til now, start to feel like we've been played.

I don't like the lyric. West shouldn't have called Swift a bitch. But that's not news because rappers have been calling women bitches forever. It's certainly news that innocent Taylor Swift would not have had a problem with West writing about his potential for having sex with her in the future if West HADN'T called her a bitch. That certainly does not comport with the Taylor Swift image that has existed til now.

Kanye insulted Taylor at the VMA and there has been a rift ever since. The "Taylor and I might still have sex" line seemed like a way of saying "Taylor and I might still be friends, yet" - thus the haha "tongue in cheek" way that Taylor took it during the conversation.

The actual song comes across as very demeaning - "I made that bitch famous". And the sex line is kind of aggressive actually. He puts her down and then says he might still have sex with her. So, yeah, NOT what they had talked about in that conversation - AT ALL.

[Anonymous]

But it was still Swift's own decision to draw attention to the song again by taking issue with West's taking credit for making her famous. (And her Grammy speech was interpreted by just about everyone who had an opinion on it to be a reference to West's song, so if it wasn't about West she should have come out and said so.)

And on the phone she said she could understand how from his point of view he made her famous, even though she'd sold 7 millions albums before he interrupted her speech.

So Swift took hold of the news cycle to focus it against West on an issue she had said she was okay with. If she wanted to complain about his misogyny, she should have talked about that instead.

But by doing what she did, it seems like she used the press to tear someone down over something they did that she was okay with when they asked her about it. Same as with Calvin Harris and the song she wrote.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But it was still Swift's own decision to draw attention to the song again by taking issue with West's taking credit for making her famous. (And her Grammy speech was interpreted by just about everyone who had an opinion on it to be a reference to West's song, so if it wasn't about West she should have come out and said so.)

And on the phone she said she could understand how from his point of view he made her famous, even though she'd sold 7 millions albums before he interrupted her speech.

So Swift took hold of the news cycle to focus it against West on an issue she had said she was okay with. If she wanted to complain about his misogyny, she should have talked about that instead.

But by doing what she did, it seems like she used the press to tear someone down over something they did that she was okay with when they asked her about it. Same as with Calvin Harris and the song she wrote.

The song that Kanye put out was not the song that he had described to Taylor. That song and that music video were over the line. Kanye was deceptive and Taylor absolutely did the right thing by calling him out for it.

She had thought that they had made peace and they could move beyond the nastiness. She was wrong. It has not gotten better....even after the candy coated sweet words and flowers, bleh.

[Anonymous]

Is this all not covered in the other thread? Does making a new post on a different day make anyone thing that everyone's opinions are going to change?

You have three separate camps of people (TS, Kanye, and Kim), all who have fame balanced on a careful investment in manufacturing and marketing each of these people to be the character they want you to believe. It should come to no one's surprise that Kanye did something dickish, Taylor is playing the victim card, and Kim released a video.