What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

The unlikely steps leading to the gas cloud are extremely unlikely but also don't require all the living creatures involved to behave in ways that don't make sense.

[Anonymous]

ALSO the 'we don't think they were murdered' line is not just coming from the dad's dad, its also coming from the sheriff's office:

A Mariposa County Sheriff's office spokesperson tells PEOPLE that while investigators "haven't ruled out anything," they are not focusing on a potential homicide.

"Murder is not high on our list," the spokesperson said.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/relatives-calif-family-mysteriously-died-000522007.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

So, upon finding a body, would death from exposure look all that different than someone who died of something else (nothing obviously a gun or wound!), then sat in the hot sun for hours and hours? I don't think it would be that obvious.

I also think the walk was more than 30 minutes from the car. I can entertain muder-suicide, but the most reasonable explanation is heat. A CO cloud is unlikely, but sure, it could have been that. It certainly isn't occurs razor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

The unlikely steps leading to the gas cloud are extremely unlikely but also don't require all the living creatures involved to behave in ways that don't make sense.

But people do behave in ways that don't make sense when suffering the effects of heat exhaustion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

The unlikely steps leading to the gas cloud are extremely unlikely but also don't require all the living creatures involved to behave in ways that don't make sense.

Um, how does poisoning not make sense wrt behavior? Heat stroke killing them all seems unlikely, but a really unfortunate series of events could have lead to it. 109 degrees is very, very hot. A “gas cloud” is basically as likely as an alien abduction.

[Anonymous]

It would have to be a gas cloud stick on the side of a hill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ALSO the 'we don't think they were murdered' line is not just coming from the dad's dad, its also coming from the sheriff's office:

A Mariposa County Sheriff's office spokesperson tells PEOPLE that while investigators "haven't ruled out anything," they are not focusing on a potential homicide.

"Murder is not high on our list," the spokesperson said.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/relatives-calif-family-mysteriously-died-000522007.html

I guess I took this to mean they don’t think there’s a murder on the loose who attacked them on the trail. I didn’t take it to mean they’d ruled out FA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It would have to be a gas cloud stick on the side of a hill.

Stuck not stick. The huge elevation change makes this unlikely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

^^I could've written this. It was murder. I could be convinced it was heatstroke, but I think that is very much less likely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

^^I could've written this. It was murder. I could be convinced it was heatstroke, but I think that is very much less likely.

I'm in the heatstroke camp mostly... but another thing that hurts that theory is that seems like it would be sort of the obvious answer and law enforcement would have said possible heat stroke, investigating other possibilities. The fact that it was initially treated as a hazmat scene (right?) makes me think there was something off at the scene, something that made this reach the headlines as "Bizarre death!", not just "Tragic death". But I have no idea what the scene was like, i have not seen any information released that explains why their first guesses were toxic algae or gas from a mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It would have to be a gas cloud stick on the side of a hill.

Stuck not stick. The huge elevation change makes this unlikely.

I was thinking that too. They were almost half way up a pretty steep incline ... 2000 ft elevation gain.

[Anonymous]

I'm in the heatstroke camp mostly... but another thing that hurts that theory is that seems like it would be sort of the obvious answer and law enforcement would have said possible heat stroke, investigating other possibilities. The fact that it was initially treated as a hazmat scene (right?) makes me think there was something off at the scene, something that made this reach the headlines as "Bizarre death!", not just "Tragic death". But I have no idea what the scene was like, i have not seen any information released that explains why their first guesses were toxic algae or gas from a mine.

I think it’s because they don’t want to so much as insinuate FA without being absolutely certain. They knew it wasn’t injury or heat stroke or a random attacker on the trail.

[Anonymous]

Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

^^I could've written this. It was murder. I could be convinced it was heatstroke, but I think that is very much less likely.

I'm in the heatstroke camp mostly... but another thing that hurts that theory is that seems like it would be sort of the obvious answer and law enforcement would have said possible heat stroke, investigating other possibilities. The fact that it was initially treated as a hazmat scene (right?) makes me think there was something off at the scene, something that made this reach the headlines as "Bizarre death!", not just "Tragic death". But I have no idea what the scene was like, i have not seen any information released that explains why their first guesses were toxic algae or gas from a mine.

These bodies have been autopsied. And yes, there are widespread reports of this being entirely bizarre and befuddling and atypical. National news about the 'mysterious' deaths of this family.

I agree that if it seemed like it was heatstroke they would have said that because that seems like by far the simplest explanation so if it had looked like that yes, they would have assumed that unless proven otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Someone on Websleuths just posted this, re dogs most vulnerable to heat stroke: https://theconversation.com/nine-dog-breeds-at-higher-risk-of-heatstroke-and-what-you-can-do-to-prevent-it-139501

Not sure how accurate it is, but it's interesting because both Golden retrievers and Chows are on the list and their dog looked like a mix of both. According to this source, Chows are 17 times more susceptible to heat stroke, and golden retrievers 3x.

The article includes this info:

"A dog’s body temperature is normally between 101°F and 102°F. Dogs regulate their body temperature by panting, expelling heat out. If he can not expel the heat fast enough, his body temperature rises. A rise of 3 degrees to a temperature of 105°F is all it takes to send your dog into a dangerous situation. At this temperature, the dog can no longer reduce his body heat by panting. He can no longer satisfy his body’s increasing demand for oxygen. His temperature will continue to rise.

When the temperature hits 108°F, the heart, brain, liver, kidneys, and intestinal tracts start to begin breaking down at a cellular level, and damage can progress at an alarming rate. Even immediate treatment and effective cooling to bring his temperature down can leave the dog with internal damage that may affect his health in long term ways."


Supports the heatstroke theory that the dog got in trouble first, given the 107-109 degree temperature estimates that day. Dad is carrying both baby and dog, or each parent carries one, which contributes to their overheating as they try to make it up the very steep incline between them and their truck.