What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not that odd to me that they still had drinking water. If the deaths were heat-related they were probably trying to conserve the water while they were still capable of rational thought (again I think they likely planned a short AM hike and something happened to keep them out there longer than expected - sprained ankle, dog overexerts and collapses, any number of things can happen to even experienced outdoorsmen and women and they didn't want to burn through all the water they packed for a short hike). They didn't realize they were in a survival situation until it was too late - at some point you aren't going to be thinking clearly or rationally about the water.

Unfortunately, decision-making rapidly deteriorates in conditions like this and even experienced hikers can get themselves into a deadly situation as a result. One of the things experienced hikers do that can actually be worse for their survival is try to self-rescue.

DP. Agree. I also think the people who find the heatstroke theory implausible are assuming that they all dropped dead at once, and there is no reason to think that. It’s entirely possible that one of them (most likely the dad) wasn’t feeling well. He was in his mid 40s, not thin, and pasty. Could be the heat, a heart issue, who knows. When it’s clear he can’t continue up a steep switchback (1500 feet elevation gain up the remaining 1.5 miles) they maybe waste too much time in the brutal heat panicking about the best way to get him to safety. They decide having him and the baby resting there makes the most sense so she can move fast to get help (the mom is slight and carrying the baby would slow her down if she could carry her that far at all). She puts the baby next to him in the shade of his body (websleuths theory), leaves the dog to guard them, and leaves the remaining water with them. She sprints up the trail to go for help, faints, and that’s the end of the chances for all of them. Dad passes out from heat. Baby can’t escape the carrier, nor dog, who, is tethered to them. Also plausible that dog or baby struggled first and they both tried to sprint the rest of the way home to save them, dad needs to rest because he’s carrying one or both, same outcome.

I think they got overconfident because they thought their hiking experience prepared them for every eventuality.

Then why didn't she take the phone? The phone blows this whole theory to bits. They have the wherewithal to make an exit plan but she forgets the one thing that will enable her to summon help?

We don’t know that she didn’t take a phone. As mentioned upthread, there are conflicting reports about this. We know he had a phone with him, and some reports have mentioned that there were “phones” plural. Also, I’m sure no one was thinking clearly if they were, as I guess, already suffering the effects of the heat.

[Anonymous]

They wouldn't be looking at the toxic algae if there were reason to think it was intentional. There's no reason to think that.

It could be heat related but that would have been obvious. Possibly they're waiting on the toxicology report before announcing it, if that is the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was no phone reception so no point in carrying it.

You can't judge someone's health based on their skin color. Don't call white people "pasty" unless you want to sound like a racist.

Men are usually more into hiking than women. She seemed more fashionable and into yoga which is not very strenuous. If she were breastfeeding, that could have dehydrated her more.

You are an idiot. Calling someone pasty is not racist. Yoga is extremely strenuous when done at a higher level (power yoga). Go away.

Agree with all this, but I do want to clarify that I did not mean to offend anyone by calling the dad “pasty”. I pointed it out because as a fellow pasty Caucasian person myself, I have noticed I’m much more susceptible to the heat than the darker skinned Caucasian people in my family. But the comments about the relative fitness of the parents are silly. Both were avid hikers, yoga at the level she practiced is extremely strenuous, and he was several years older and presumably carrying the baby the whole trip, so quite possibly more exhausted than she.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

[Anonymous]

The paternal father is also British. So we should consider that. An American father would be in front of the press blasting a slow investigation or out on the trail looking for his child. Maybe a British father, while worried, is more concerned with trusting the authorities?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was no phone reception so no point in carrying it.

You can't judge someone's health based on their skin color. Don't call white people "pasty" unless you want to sound like a racist.

Men are usually more into hiking than women. She seemed more fashionable and into yoga which is not very strenuous. If she were breastfeeding, that could have dehydrated her more.

Yoga is incredibly strenuous and women are most definitely into hiking. Women have more stamina and and endurance than men as well. Google it. Mom def seemed like the stronger one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was no phone reception so no point in carrying it.

You can't judge someone's health based on their skin color. Don't call white people "pasty" unless you want to sound like a racist.

Men are usually more into hiking than women. She seemed more fashionable and into yoga which is not very strenuous. If she were breastfeeding, that could have dehydrated her more.

You are an idiot. Calling someone pasty is not racist. Yoga is extremely strenuous when done at a higher level (power yoga). Go away.

Just don't call people pasty from now on, okay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Heat stroke only makes sense to me if I think of it as a domino effect, rather than everyone coincidentally going at the same time.

Dog runs happily down the trail to start the day, but becomes overheated and worn out playing alongside the river. When they start back up the trail, dog is moving more slowly than normal, so the hike stretches more into the heat of the day than planned. This wears on all of them. Dog eventually needs assistance getting up the hill. Mom and Dad are trying to share the heavy lifting (baby and/or dog). When one parent gets too worn out, the other takes a turn. Now the hike is taking even longer, and it's getting hotter. One of the adults starts to show signs of heat stress, so they stop to rest. Both parents are completely spent by now. Dog collapses during the rest period. Parents decide it's time to split up. Dad will stay with the dog, mom will go for help. She knows she won't be able to carry the baby the rest of the way up, so they decide baby will stay with Dad until she can come back with help. Unfortunately, she never does - she only makes it a little way up the trail before she collapses in the heat. Were they close enough for Dad to see her collapse? If it was around a switchback, he may not have realized it, so he sat there for a while waiting for her to send help - not knowing that she hadn't made it. He may have died shortly after, or an hour or more later. Even if a few hours passed, and he started to accept that help wasn't coming, the extra time sitting in direct sun meant he just couldn't get up at that point, especially carrying the baby. Baby would not have survived long with both parents passed out or dead.

The only thing about this scenario that doesn't make any sense at all: they apparently still had water. Maybe they were trying to save it for the baby? And neither of them realized just how bad of shape they were in until it was too late .... if they were still together, when one person started to collapse the other would likely push water on them, but if they had already split up at that point...

I don't know. Family annihilation could make sense too, but it's an odd way to do it. Not sure I buy the toxic algae theory.

Actually that totally makes sense. I live in a very hot desert, and a few years back a family got lost while hiking. Mom and dad died of heatstroke because they saved all the water for their child. So this mom and dad could have been saving the water for the baby (as most parents would), and ended up dying first.

Weren’t they right near their home though? The trailhead near the home so it couldn’t have been far enough to need that much water I would say. I mean consider if you go for a walk near your home. How much water do you need to make it halfway and back?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

What makes you think the father wouldn't cover for the son if that was the case? Chris Watts' parents insisted he didn't do it until there was incontrovertible evidence and still insisted he was pushed into it by the 'evil wife'.

[Anonymous]

When the dads british dad insisted that they were not murdered, I take that to mean he’s saying it wasn’t some 3rd party that attacked them on the trail. I don’t interpret it as foreclosing the possibility of family annihilation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think she died first. If he were ill, he would not be able to care for the dog and baby. She was much smaller than him. Men have longer legs, can take greater strides. He may have been waiting for her to catch up. She may have drunk water, and then vomited it. The vomit evaporated, leaving no trace. He may have sat to wait for her, not knowing she was ill. When he found her, he couldn't call for help. He walked back to sit so the baby wouldn't see the dead mom. It's very hot having a baby on your back. He had no will to live with her gone.

Please tell me this is Boulder poster again

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think she died first. If he were ill, he would not be able to care for the dog and baby. She was much smaller than him. Men have longer legs, can take greater strides. He may have been waiting for her to catch up. She may have drunk water, and then vomited it. The vomit evaporated, leaving no trace. He may have sat to wait for her, not knowing she was ill. When he found her, he couldn't call for help. He walked back to sit so the baby wouldn't see the dead mom. It's very hot having a baby on your back. He had no will to live with her gone.

Please tell me this is Boulder poster again

I think it must be!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

What makes you think the father wouldn't cover for the son if that was the case? Chris Watts' parents insisted he didn't do it until there was incontrovertible evidence and still insisted he was pushed into it by the 'evil wife'.

1) Chris Watts was alive, and therefore there was someone to 'cover for. There was also a living person to tell them he didn't do it and try to convince him. In this case the guy is dead. If they thought he was an annihilator they would be saying absolutely nothing and hoping no one learned of their name. They get nothing from speaking out. There is no one alive to risk this for.

2) Telling the press you have no reason to believe they were murdered isn't covering for him, it implies some knowledge of the scene of the crime and the police's beliefs.

I don't understand people reading that much into the father's statement. What I hear is, 'there is a lot of information that isn't public and we hope they finish the investigation because we want answers too and it doesn't sound like this was foul play'