What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know if the dog was leashed or not? Unleashed dog would have tried to go to the water or shade.

Even if the dog were leashed wouldn't he have tried to chew through the leash or have injuries from pulling the leash? Also before dying of heat, dogs typically overheat and throw up and have diarrhea. Wouldn't there be traces of that?

Unless the dog died quickly from some sort of poison, then there would be no signs of struggle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

The majority of people make it out of parks without being murdered.

You require a killer to follow them a mile from the car. And kill them for no gain. That's extremely unlikely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone on Websleuths just posted this, re dogs most vulnerable to heat stroke: https://theconversation.com/nine-dog-breeds-at-higher-risk-of-heatstroke-and-what-you-can-do-to-prevent-it-139501

Not sure how accurate it is, but it's interesting because both Golden retrievers and Chows are on the list and their dog looked like a mix of both. According to this source, Chows are 17 times more susceptible to heat stroke, and golden retrievers 3x.

The article includes this info:

"A dog’s body temperature is normally between 101°F and 102°F. Dogs regulate their body temperature by panting, expelling heat out. If he can not expel the heat fast enough, his body temperature rises. A rise of 3 degrees to a temperature of 105°F is all it takes to send your dog into a dangerous situation. At this temperature, the dog can no longer reduce his body heat by panting. He can no longer satisfy his body’s increasing demand for oxygen. His temperature will continue to rise.

When the temperature hits 108°F, the heart, brain, liver, kidneys, and intestinal tracts start to begin breaking down at a cellular level, and damage can progress at an alarming rate. Even immediate treatment and effective cooling to bring his temperature down can leave the dog with internal damage that may affect his health in long term ways."


Supports the heatstroke theory that the dog got in trouble first, given the 107-109 degree temperature estimates that day. Dad is carrying both baby and dog, or each parent carries one, which contributes to their overheating as they try to make it up the very steep incline between them and their truck.

No this doesn't support the heatstroke theory. Sure the dog gets in trouble but almost simultaneously three humans of varying size do too? Or at least one does and the other can only make it 30 yrds to try to get help? They were experienced hikers who lived in the area. They knew the weather, they knew there was no shade and they all went together. FA for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

Nobody is saying they all dropped dead of a heatstroke simultaneously. Lots of plausible scenarios have been put forth involving one member of the party getting overheated or injured, which slowed down the whole family long enough that the prolonged exposure to the heat got to all of them, and rather than split up early on and send whoever was in good enough shape back for help, they stayed together until it was too late for any of them to be strong enough to make it back to the car.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did the dad's dad say?

We are mystified like everyone else. I don't want to say a great deal as there is a lot going on," John's father Peter told the Daily Mail. "We are just waiting for the authorities to do all the tests. We are in touch with them and are awaiting the final analysis."

'We are mystified like everyone else': Father of British software developer found dead with wife, baby and dog on California hiking trail says family are still waiting for autopsy test results but insists they were not murdered.

If dad is insisting they were not murdered then they absolutely do not have evidence of family annihilation. Here is the thing about exceedingly rare bizarre natural occurrences. They are rare, but they happen. And when they happen, they are the kind of thing that bubbles up through the news like this. Form 2007-2018 2,727 people died in national parks. There aren't 40 page long threads speculating about it because people know what happened! And it wasn't super hard to figure out.

People die of exposure all the time, and you can tell that they died of exposure when you find them. People are murdered all the time and you can usually tell that when they find them. People don't die with their dog on a path a half hour from their car very often. Even in extreme heat (which we don't actually know they expereinced). They had plenty of water and while yes, in a crisis situation parents would save water for their child, again, they were 1.5 miles from their car, on a path, not lost. Police don't treat a scene like a hazmat area and start looking into aerosolized toxic algae if it looks like people died of exposure or murder.

Occam's razor is interesting here, because all the 'simple' answers require complicated factors to explain them. MAYBE heat stroke, IF the dog went first and the parents quickly became so disoriented they made bad choices even though both parents are healthy adults with EXTENSIVE outdoors and hiking experience. MAYBE family annihilation if dad managed to find some perfect poison that was impossible detect and he knew precisely how to poison baby, mom and dog so effectively that they were found in basically peaceful positions without evidence of sickness. I think perhaps more than Occam's razor we need to consider some Sherlock Holmes,

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Even using Occam's razor I think the CO cloud is the simplest and most logical explanation. Maybe one of these convoluted explanations will be the answer. But none of them REALLY make sense when you look at what we know both about these people and the scene.

Lol. How can you walk through all of that and conclude that a series of events leading up to known and frequent causes of death (homicide, exposure) is LESS likely than an incredibly rare, incredibly freak natural release of CO? Do you need us to go through all the unlikely steps that would lead to a catastrophic gas cloud?

This was murder, almost certainly. I can entertain heat stroke, but the most reasonable explanation is murder-suicide. (Note: toxicology reports have not been completed yet.)

^^I could've written this. It was murder. I could be convinced it was heatstroke, but I think that is very much less likely.

I'm in the heatstroke camp mostly... but another thing that hurts that theory is that seems like it would be sort of the obvious answer and law enforcement would have said possible heat stroke, investigating other possibilities. The fact that it was initially treated as a hazmat scene (right?) makes me think there was something off at the scene, something that made this reach the headlines as "Bizarre death!", not just "Tragic death". But I have no idea what the scene was like, i have not seen any information released that explains why their first guesses were toxic algae or gas from a mine.

These bodies have been autopsied. And yes, there are widespread reports of this being entirely bizarre and befuddling and atypical. National news about the 'mysterious' deaths of this family.

I agree that if it seemed like it was heatstroke they would have said that because that seems like by far the simplest explanation so if it had looked like that yes, they would have assumed that unless proven otherwise.

Right, but while an autoposy could indicate heat stroke, it would not be conclusive without ruling out other causes. It isn't slam dunk cause of death with autopsoy.. I'll point to the recent bay area case of a running who died almost surely of heat stroke this summer, but they still are sending out toxicology to rule out anything else. So I don't think the autopsy being complete rules out heat stroke at all. and, no, they all did not need to "simultaneously" die of heat stroke, they merely had to decide not to split up. It can come on pretty fast.

But yes, I am a little confused by the headlines and the messaging of bizarreness and heat stroke. Maybe media just ran with something, but there may have been more to it.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think “it was only 1.5 miles to the car” is a simple statement. It was 1.5 grueling steep uphill hike in very hot weather. With a dog and an infant in a carrier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

That is a bizarre way to try to kill someone. Literally who would do that and why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

.... Is that really true? All the time? Plus, this isn't like they were camping in some frequented park and were killed by a crazy. It would have to be targeted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think “it was only 1.5 miles to the car” is a simple statement. It was 1.5 grueling steep uphill hike in very hot weather. With a dog and an infant in a carrier.

We don’t actually know it was super hot though. It was only in the 70s with no humidity in the morning and didn’t hit the 100s til after noon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ALSO the 'we don't think they were murdered' line is not just coming from the dad's dad, its also coming from the sheriff's office:

A Mariposa County Sheriff's office spokesperson tells PEOPLE that while investigators "haven't ruled out anything," they are not focusing on a potential homicide.

"Murder is not high on our list," the spokesperson said.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/relatives-calif-family-mysteriously-died-000522007.html

I guess I took this to mean they don’t think there’s a murder on the loose who attacked them on the trail. I didn’t take it to mean they’d ruled out FA.

Exactly, they say that so people won't panic. I know it's horrible for the family to comprehend, but there is only one logical explanation. Authorities did not release all their information. It's FA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

Nobody is saying they all dropped dead of a heatstroke simultaneously. Lots of plausible scenarios have been put forth involving one member of the party getting overheated or injured, which slowed down the whole family long enough that the prolonged exposure to the heat got to all of them, and rather than split up early on and send whoever was in good enough shape back for help, they stayed together until it was too late for any of them to be strong enough to make it back to the car.

The issue is that they just weren't missing long enough for all four to have died this way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

Nobody is saying they all dropped dead of a heatstroke simultaneously. Lots of plausible scenarios have been put forth involving one member of the party getting overheated or injured, which slowed down the whole family long enough that the prolonged exposure to the heat got to all of them, and rather than split up early on and send whoever was in good enough shape back for help, they stayed together until it was too late for any of them to be strong enough to make it back to the car.

The issue is that they just weren't missing long enough for all four to have died this way.

Sure they were. They went hiking at some point Sunday. LE reports originally said Sunday afternoon, though that sounds unlikely to me given the heat. Nanny arrived Monday morning and they are not there. Authorities are alerted Monday morning or afternoon. Bodies recovered Tuesday.

[Anonymous]

They must have died on Sunday though. They didn’t plan to camp and they had to work Monday morning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Weighing in here to say people get murdered in parks ALL THE TIME and this was close to the car, where someone could have parked and lay in wait. I realize the sheriff said it's not high on their list (and the dad's father repeated that), but I am putting in a vote for 3rd party murder.

I realize there are no bullet holes or stab wounds. What about chloroform rag to the mouth, passing out, then heat stroke?

There is zero chance 4 beings succumb to heat stroke simultaneously. I have never heard of a CO cloud--sounds like quicksand or something from a comic book/70s TV show.

.... Is that really true? All the time? Plus, this isn't like they were camping in some frequented park and were killed by a crazy. It would have to be targeted.

It homicides are very rare. 95% of intentional deaths in national parks are from suicide.

[Anonymous]

Here's 2 hikers who died (separately) of heat stroke in Death Valley. Similar weather conditions but no uphill hiking involved.