Gaza War, Part 2

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.

You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.

And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.

Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.

Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.

Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?

You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.

Israel is eradicating a terror organization using some of your tax dollars. Some of your tax dollars also go by the way of the UN to the Palestinians. ^ fixed that for you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.

You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.

And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.

Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.

Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.

Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?

You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.

Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?

Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas has been around for 20 years. Surprised by how ignorant the people in here are about the organization and what it’s done to Gazans. The violence against Israel was not justified either. But here we are.

Try again. Learn basic facts.

1988, so 25 if you want to be more specific I guess?

… 35

This dickering is a sign to me that interest is petering out on this. The world is already weary and wants to be done. Israel will mop up Hamas and then Palestinians have some choices to make about who they want to be as a people, now and for their kids.

For the love of God, stop stereotyping Palestinians as if they are a freaking monolith you islamophobe.

[Anonymous]

Gaza is like it is because they elected terrorists to run the place when Israel left. Somehow that’s Israel’s fault and justifies terrorism?

Israel has done a lot of things I don’t agree with. None of it justifies the psychotic charter of Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas has been around for 20 years. Surprised by how ignorant the people in here are about the organization and what it’s done to Gazans. The violence against Israel was not justified either. But here we are.

Try again. Learn basic facts.

1988, so 25 if you want to be more specific I guess?

… 35

This dickering is a sign to me that interest is petering out on this. The world is already weary and wants to be done. Israel will mop up Hamas and then Palestinians have some choices to make about who they want to be as a people, now and for their kids.

For the love of God, stop stereotyping Palestinians as if they are a freaking monolith you islamophobe.

They’re talking about new elections.

And you complain about supposedly knee jerk responses about antisemitism?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.

That’s quite the definition of underdog.

The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.

I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.

+1

Exactly.

Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.

I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.

Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?

Uncle Sam, back at it again!

Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)

Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?

The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.

Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.

This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?

I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:

Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)

And

Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.

Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.

Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.

Nobody said the attack was justified. Any people oppressed enough will revolt. This overreaction will have generational repercussions. Unless it succeeds with a full genocide somebody will survive and remember. This is bad and I do blame the PM

Hamas massively overplayed their hand and will be mopped up. Their "friends" in the region are few and far between. The way that 'support' played out in the West was pretty revealing and did no great service to the actual, long term Palestinian cause. There will be no genocide of Palestinian people, but what a misstep. I hope Palestinians stop squandering time for their kids, and kids kids, and get back to the negotiating table when Hamas is gone. I hope they never again make the mistake of thinking that terror (through terror groups they vote for) offers more than the shortest leverage.

If you think they will be “mopped up” you don’t have an understanding of the region - and this will pave the way for more hatred of Israel in the region (it is already extremely hated by everyone else in the region), and it will pave the way for MORE extremist groups. Just watch. Y’all are just bloodthirsty and love seeing dead Palestinians so you’re getting off on this trauma porn. It’s weird and sadistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas has been around for 20 years. Surprised by how ignorant the people in here are about the organization and what it’s done to Gazans. The violence against Israel was not justified either. But here we are.

Try again. Learn basic facts.

1988, so 25 if you want to be more specific I guess?

… 35

This dickering is a sign to me that interest is petering out on this. The world is already weary and wants to be done. Israel will mop up Hamas and then Palestinians have some choices to make about who they want to be as a people, now and for their kids.

For the love of God, stop stereotyping Palestinians as if they are a freaking monolith you islamophobe.

What stereotype?

[Anonymous]

Israel has closed off Gaza to journalists and destroyed Gaza's internet all in an attempt to hide the ongoing genocide. Israel's quest for revenge and bloodlust won't be satiated until the West Bank and Gaza are purged of Palestinians. This was always the end goal - purge the land of non-Jews to fulfill Israel's desire for a Jewish homeland

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.

That’s quite the definition of underdog.

The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.

I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.

+1

Exactly.

Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.

I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.

Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?

Uncle Sam, back at it again!

Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)

Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?

The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.

Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.

This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?

I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:

Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)

And

Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.

Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.

Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.

Nobody said the attack was justified. Any people oppressed enough will revolt. This overreaction will have generational repercussions. Unless it succeeds with a full genocide somebody will survive and remember. This is bad and I do blame the PM

Hamas massively overplayed their hand and will be mopped up. Their "friends" in the region are few and far between. The way that 'support' played out in the West was pretty revealing and did no great service to the actual, long term Palestinian cause. There will be no genocide of Palestinian people, but what a misstep. I hope Palestinians stop squandering time for their kids, and kids kids, and get back to the negotiating table when Hamas is gone. I hope they never again make the mistake of thinking that terror (through terror groups they vote for) offers more than the shortest leverage.

If you think they will be “mopped up” you don’t have an understanding of the region - and this will pave the way for more hatred of Israel in the region (it is already extremely hated by everyone else in the region), and it will pave the way for MORE extremist groups. Just watch. Y’all are just bloodthirsty and love seeing dead Palestinians so you’re getting off on this trauma porn. It’s weird and sadistic.

Go calm down. No one is bloodthirsty here.

Are you the one who spent last night denying that someone’s antisemitic experiences happened?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Israel has closed off Gaza to journalists and destroyed Gaza's internet all in an attempt to hide the ongoing genocide. Israel's quest for revenge and bloodlust won't be satiated until the West Bank and Gaza are purged of Palestinians. This was always the end goal - purge the land of non-Jews to fulfill Israel's desire for a Jewish homeland

Or. Hear me out. They’re about to occupy the place and clear out Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.

That’s quite the definition of underdog.

The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.

I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.

+1

Exactly.

Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.

I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.

Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?

Uncle Sam, back at it again!

Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)

Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?

The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.

Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.

This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?

I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:

Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)

And

Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.

Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.

Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.

Nobody said the attack was justified. Any people oppressed enough will revolt. This overreaction will have generational repercussions. Unless it succeeds with a full genocide somebody will survive and remember. This is bad and I do blame the PM

Hamas massively overplayed their hand and will be mopped up. Their "friends" in the region are few and far between. The way that 'support' played out in the West was pretty revealing and did no great service to the actual, long term Palestinian cause. There will be no genocide of Palestinian people, but what a misstep. I hope Palestinians stop squandering time for their kids, and kids kids, and get back to the negotiating table when Hamas is gone. I hope they never again make the mistake of thinking that terror (through terror groups they vote for) offers more than the shortest leverage.

If you think they will be “mopped up” you don’t have an understanding of the region - and this will pave the way for more hatred of Israel in the region (it is already extremely hated by everyone else in the region), and it will pave the way for MORE extremist groups. Just watch. Y’all are just bloodthirsty and love seeing dead Palestinians so you’re getting off on this trauma porn. It’s weird and sadistic.

Go calm down. No one is bloodthirsty here.

Are you the one who spent last night denying that someone’s antisemitic experiences happened?

It’s obviously her. I can’t believe Jeff let’s her post here.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.

That’s quite the definition of underdog.

The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.

I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.

+1

Exactly.

Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.

I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.

Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?

Uncle Sam, back at it again!

Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)

Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?

The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.

Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.

This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?

I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:

Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)

And

Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.

Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.

Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.

Nobody said the attack was justified. Any people oppressed enough will revolt. This overreaction will have generational repercussions. Unless it succeeds with a full genocide somebody will survive and remember. This is bad and I do blame the PM

Hamas massively overplayed their hand and will be mopped up. Their "friends" in the region are few and far between. The way that 'support' played out in the West was pretty revealing and did no great service to the actual, long term Palestinian cause. There will be no genocide of Palestinian people, but what a misstep. I hope Palestinians stop squandering time for their kids, and kids kids, and get back to the negotiating table when Hamas is gone. I hope they never again make the mistake of thinking that terror (through terror groups they vote for) offers more than the shortest leverage.

If you think they will be “mopped up” you don’t have an understanding of the region - and this will pave the way for more hatred of Israel in the region (it is already extremely hated by everyone else in the region), and it will pave the way for MORE extremist groups. Just watch. Y’all are just bloodthirsty and love seeing dead Palestinians so you’re getting off on this trauma porn. It’s weird and sadistic.

Regionally speaking, no one like Hamas. They’re happy to help get rid of them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.

You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.

And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.

Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.

Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.

Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?

You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.

Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?

Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?

It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?

And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.

That’s quite the definition of underdog.

The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.

I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.

+1

Exactly.

Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.

I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.

Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...

The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?

Uncle Sam, back at it again!

Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)

[b]Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?

The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.

Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.

This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?

I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:

Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)

And

Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.

Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.

Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.

Again, let’s establish something:

Israel created Hamas. Then Israel empowered Hamas.

I guess that was a bad idea.

Sorry, you can’t pretend that Israel is a good faith actor or that the Palestinians, as a people, have been treated fairly or that history began on October 7. It just doesn’t work that way! The history is there for people to figure out.

This is a blatant and complete distortion. Israel did not create Hamas. This is the skewed statements that suggest your bias against Israel and implicit statement that Israeli deaths and kidnappings are their fault is atrocious.

Israel wants to exist. That is all. It is Hamas that wants to destroy it and before Hamas other Palestinian regimes. If there was no aggression against Israel, there would be no aggression from Israel.

So simple, right?! But to exist Israel keeps its boot on the throat of millions.

Hamas keeps its boot on the throat of millions. Hamas. Israel has a right to protect itself and to seek out the terrorists who attacked them and to recover 200+ kidnapped men, women, and children.

Again, this is decades of attacks upon Israel. Decades. And yet the anti-Israel contingent suggests that Israel should never respond. Why? Because they don’t care if Israel exists? Why? Because they hate Jews and want to pretend as if Jews never existed in this land even though they precede Muslims and Christians.

The should respond. They did. They killed more Palestinians than the Israelis kill. Now they should pause and ask for peace talks and be open to what conditions allowed for the original attacks.

The goal is to get rid of Hamas. That is what they are doing.