Russia - civil war has broken out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

The same court America pays countries to ignore?

PP you replied to. I'm European, not American. And last time I checked, every country was eager to send war criminals to the Hague unless they were their own criminals... which is somewhat understandable. Yes, the US is not enthusiastic about the Hague in general but it sure will be for Russians!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gee this all seems to have taken some of the wind out of the pro-Russia trolls' sails 😆

Because so far it’s been a nothingburger
Let’s see what comes next

Nothingburger?

One word. "smuta"

When a very strong dam or bridge is structurally unsound, it takes time to break. Prigozhin was the crack. But there are no repairs or building of other dams or bridges taking place to relieve the stress? If anything, the supports are being removed, one-by-one. When it does break, it's a violent event.

I think Russia is still on the road towards anarchy within two years.

Be patient. Just watch.

Okay let’s compare notes in two years
I am not pro Russian government fwiw but I think people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is
Prigozhin will be dealt with and life will move on

LOL it's like mainstream media is positively gagging to write the-sky-is-falling stories about Russia to have their (invariably wrong) projections come true. Behold the likes of Madame Sikorsky and NYT's Troianovsky screeching, it's civil war! sliding into chaos! instability uncertainty! great vulnerability! Who needs circus tickets when you have them.

I find this sentiment (the sky is falling) very common among long time emigres who must have believed their own asylum stories of “horrible discrimination” they faced a little too much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

The same court America pays countries to ignore?

PP you replied to. I'm European, not American. And last time I checked, every country was eager to send war criminals to the Hague unless they were their own criminals... which is somewhat understandable. Yes, the US is not enthusiastic about the Hague in general but it sure will be for Russians!

Aka court for thee but not for me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Apparently we are inching closer to a planned Russian sabotage of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Ukraine intelligence chief recently reported that Russians have completed all their preparations for a catastrophic failure of the plant, and that all they're waiting for is the right moment. One such moment might be when Ukrainians gain control of both banks of the Dnipro. Every event that helps Ukraine and/or hinders Russia, such as the recent Wagner mutiny, increases the risk that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant explodes.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18852

Moscow and it’s cost cutting under Soviet rule was the reason Chernobyl exploded and caused god knows how many deaths (yes, I know, the official count is 28-31, end of list) and now Moscow might do it again purely out of spite?

Any Republicans want to re-examine their support for Russia?

Or Kyiv is preparing to do something at the power station and point the finger at Russia afterwards. It's not like this paper is a neutral party you know.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Right. Ukraine is going to poison their own soil for thousands of years, just for fun.

We believe you, PP

Why would Russia, using this logic, poison the land they've just seized and intend to hold? Especially coupled with knowledge that radiation has no boundaries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Apparently we are inching closer to a planned Russian sabotage of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Ukraine intelligence chief recently reported that Russians have completed all their preparations for a catastrophic failure of the plant, and that all they're waiting for is the right moment. One such moment might be when Ukrainians gain control of both banks of the Dnipro. Every event that helps Ukraine and/or hinders Russia, such as the recent Wagner mutiny, increases the risk that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant explodes.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18852

Moscow and it’s cost cutting under Soviet rule was the reason Chernobyl exploded and caused god knows how many deaths (yes, I know, the official count is 28-31, end of list) and now Moscow might do it again purely out of spite?

Any Republicans want to re-examine their support for Russia?

Or Kyiv is preparing to do something at the power station and point the finger at Russia afterwards. It's not like this paper is a neutral party you know.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Right. Ukraine is going to poison their own soil for thousands of years, just for fun.

We believe you, PP

Why would Russia, using this logic, poison the land they've just seized and intend to hold? Especially coupled with knowledge that radiation has no boundaries?

Ever heard of scorched earth policy? Well, the Russians are known for the two most famous non-U.S. examples in the last ~200 years (see Napoleon's Invasion of Russia in 1812, Hitler's invasion of Russia in 1941). I wouldn't put it past them to pursue a similar policy if they find themselves having to beat a hasty retreat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Apparently we are inching closer to a planned Russian sabotage of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Ukraine intelligence chief recently reported that Russians have completed all their preparations for a catastrophic failure of the plant, and that all they're waiting for is the right moment. One such moment might be when Ukrainians gain control of both banks of the Dnipro. Every event that helps Ukraine and/or hinders Russia, such as the recent Wagner mutiny, increases the risk that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant explodes.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18852

Moscow and it’s cost cutting under Soviet rule was the reason Chernobyl exploded and caused god knows how many deaths (yes, I know, the official count is 28-31, end of list) and now Moscow might do it again purely out of spite?

Any Republicans want to re-examine their support for Russia?

Or Kyiv is preparing to do something at the power station and point the finger at Russia afterwards. It's not like this paper is a neutral party you know.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Right. Ukraine is going to poison their own soil for thousands of years, just for fun.

We believe you, PP

Why would Russia, using this logic, poison the land they've just seized and intend to hold? Especially coupled with knowledge that radiation has no boundaries?

Ever heard of scorched earth policy? Well, the Russians are known for the two most famous non-U.S. examples in the last ~200 years (see Napoleon's Invasion of Russia in 1812, Hitler's invasion of Russia in 1941). I wouldn't put it past them to pursue a similar policy if they find themselves having to beat a hasty retreat.

It wouldn't scorch only THAT earth plus they are really in no danger of retreat just yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Apparently we are inching closer to a planned Russian sabotage of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Ukraine intelligence chief recently reported that Russians have completed all their preparations for a catastrophic failure of the plant, and that all they're waiting for is the right moment. One such moment might be when Ukrainians gain control of both banks of the Dnipro. Every event that helps Ukraine and/or hinders Russia, such as the recent Wagner mutiny, increases the risk that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant explodes.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18852

Moscow and it’s cost cutting under Soviet rule was the reason Chernobyl exploded and caused god knows how many deaths (yes, I know, the official count is 28-31, end of list) and now Moscow might do it again purely out of spite?

Any Republicans want to re-examine their support for Russia?

Or Kyiv is preparing to do something at the power station and point the finger at Russia afterwards. It's not like this paper is a neutral party you know.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Right. Ukraine is going to poison their own soil for thousands of years, just for fun.

We believe you, PP

Why would Russia, using this logic, poison the land they've just seized and intend to hold? Especially coupled with knowledge that radiation has no boundaries?

Because it's not theirs and they know that this is a war they cannot win by conventional means since NATO is united in this conflict and will support Ukraine to the bitter end. Ukraine would never sabotage its own nuclear plants - European nations would withdraw their support entirely.

Putin does not care AT ALL about killing his own citizens. The Russian Army has used Chechens behind the front to shoot any soldier on the front line who tries to desert. The Russian Army drives incinerator trucks to the front lines to burn its soldiers' bodies so they can hide the number of war dead and not pay widows and orphans immediately.

The plan to sabotage Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant is real and ready to be deployed. Russian personnel and the top Ukrainian officials that were forced to sign contracts with them have until July 5th to move out - Russians to wherever, Ukrainians to Russian-occupied Crimea. The Russian troops surrounding the plant are thinning out. They plan to force some Ukrainians to stay at the plant until the damage is triggered. Several methods have been outlined for this to happen, from slow-acting ones (detonating the mines at the cooling pools) to fast-acting ones (intensely increasing the voltage at the plant). The Ukrainian population living close to the Zaporizhzhia occupied territory has long been warned of a possibly leak or explosion, and has carried out drills regularly. Iodine pills have been distributed.

I'm the European who posted a few minutes ago, and I lived through Chernobyl as a small child - lived in Germany at the time. My city was in the path of the radiation. I was not allowed to drink milk, because cows were eating the contaminated grass. Some mushrooms in the forests had enormous levels of radiation and we were advised not to pick them. It was a scary time, made worse because governments of the period were extremely cagey about where the radiation was headed; some like France outright lied to their populations. This time with social media, they won't be able to hide it, and populations will have more information to preserve their health. Every single EU country has a plan in place, but the ones further out have not publicized theirs, or distributed iodine, since for them fallout will depend on the wind.

God help us when it actually happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Apparently we are inching closer to a planned Russian sabotage of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Ukraine intelligence chief recently reported that Russians have completed all their preparations for a catastrophic failure of the plant, and that all they're waiting for is the right moment. One such moment might be when Ukrainians gain control of both banks of the Dnipro. Every event that helps Ukraine and/or hinders Russia, such as the recent Wagner mutiny, increases the risk that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant explodes.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18852

Moscow and it’s cost cutting under Soviet rule was the reason Chernobyl exploded and caused god knows how many deaths (yes, I know, the official count is 28-31, end of list) and now Moscow might do it again purely out of spite?

Any Republicans want to re-examine their support for Russia?

Or Kyiv is preparing to do something at the power station and point the finger at Russia afterwards. It's not like this paper is a neutral party you know.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Right. Ukraine is going to poison their own soil for thousands of years, just for fun.

We believe you, PP

Why would Russia, using this logic, poison the land they've just seized and intend to hold? Especially coupled with knowledge that radiation has no boundaries?

Because it's not theirs and they know that this is a war they cannot win by conventional means since NATO is united in this conflict and will support Ukraine to the bitter end. Ukraine would never sabotage its own nuclear plants - European nations would withdraw their support entirely.

Putin does not care AT ALL about killing his own citizens. The Russian Army has used Chechens behind the front to shoot any soldier on the front line who tries to desert. The Russian Army drives incinerator trucks to the front lines to burn its soldiers' bodies so they can hide the number of war dead and not pay widows and orphans immediately.

The plan to sabotage Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant is real and ready to be deployed. Russian personnel and the top Ukrainian officials that were forced to sign contracts with them have until July 5th to move out - Russians to wherever, Ukrainians to Russian-occupied Crimea. The Russian troops surrounding the plant are thinning out. They plan to force some Ukrainians to stay at the plant until the damage is triggered. Several methods have been outlined for this to happen, from slow-acting ones (detonating the mines at the cooling pools) to fast-acting ones (intensely increasing the voltage at the plant). The Ukrainian population living close to the Zaporizhzhia occupied territory has long been warned of a possibly leak or explosion, and has carried out drills regularly. Iodine pills have been distributed.

I'm the European who posted a few minutes ago, and I lived through Chernobyl as a small child - lived in Germany at the time. My city was in the path of the radiation. I was not allowed to drink milk, because cows were eating the contaminated grass. Some mushrooms in the forests had enormous levels of radiation and we were advised not to pick them. It was a scary time, made worse because governments of the period were extremely cagey about where the radiation was headed; some like France outright lied to their populations. This time with social media, they won't be able to hide it, and populations will have more information to preserve their health. Every single EU country has a plan in place, but the ones further out have not publicized theirs, or distributed iodine, since for them fallout will depend on the wind.

God help us when it actually happens.

LOL that's exactly the type of convincing tone they used when Nord Stream got blown up and everyone was VERRRY SURRE it was Russia. And then it kinda died down and in a few months it was like...um....actually Ukrainians did...and we actually did know way ahead of time...do you still believe what you read in the papers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Because it's not theirs and they know that this is a war they cannot win by conventional means since NATO is united in this conflict and will support Ukraine to the bitter end. Ukraine would never sabotage its own nuclear plants - European nations would withdraw their support entirely.

Oh you dear darling credulous child. Are you quite sure you didn't drink all that contaminated milk as a child? I fear your ability for critical scrutiny has been fearfully crippled.

Look, saboteurs don't leave notes behind. They don't go on telly and be like, I CLAIM RESPONSIBILiTYYYY. Stuff just.....gets blown up.

Europe has no standards for Ukraine at all. I mean it blew up a major pipeline, an act that would otherwise be called international terrorism, and...bubkes. So, don't get all uppity about Europeans will withdraw their support! Nothing of that sort will happen. There is very little Ukraine can do right now to jeopardize the support of Europeans....except, you know, not perform on the battlefield.

[Anonymous]

You can post your pro-Russian arguments all you want, PP, but none of them make sense.

You are typing for nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You can post your pro-Russian arguments all you want, PP, but none of them make sense.

You are typing for nothing.

I'm not pro anyone. Including you. I am pro facts and what I posted is observable fact.

[Anonymous]

Well, whatever. Ultimately Russia's invasion has been a gift to the West. Here is its greatest adversary for the past 80 years making an incredible strategic blunder. They invaded Ukraine. And now their military is utterly wrecked. They are nearly as isolated as North Korea. They are no longer a threat to the Baltics or Poland. All the educated young people have fled. There is no possible good outcome for Russia. Ever.

It's such a win for the West

The question now is how to contain the damage in Russia. It devolving into civil war is in no one's interest. But a long, slow bleed is. Ukraine will never run out of western military support. NATO could take out Russian forces in a month. But it's very important that it's Ukrainians that get the win. Only then might Russia change. But in the meantime, long, slow bleed.

[Anonymous]

Moscow had literal tank columns rolling towards it and order was still present

A cop does an oopsie in the us or France and cities burn

😂

The “west” has nothing to teach the rest

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can post your pro-Russian arguments all you want, PP, but none of them make sense.

You are typing for nothing.

I'm not pro anyone. Including you. I am pro facts and what I posted is observable fact.

Not really. Insulting other posters is not observable facts. If you want more credibility, stick to factual debate. There's plenty to debate, since many events we hear about about cannot be officially confirmed by any third parties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Moscow had literal tank columns rolling towards it and order was still present
A cop does an oopsie in the us or France and cities burn

😂

The “west” has nothing to teach the rest

And why is that? BECAUSE RUSSIA IS AN AUTHORITARIAN DICTATORSHIP