Russia - civil war has broken out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

How does Prigozhin pay the Wagner troops? Where does the money come from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

How does Prigozhin pay the Wagner troops? Where does the money come from?

Africa and other places.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

How does Prigozhin pay the Wagner troops? Where does the money come from?

That's quite murky. What we know is that in exchange for thug services, certain African leaders have given control of diamond mine operations and other lucrative exploitations to Wagner. However Prigo made his own money by winning catering contracts with Moscow schools, the Kremlin, and the army, because of his relationship with Putin. He complained bitterly this year that he was being forced to sign new catering contracts that would put him out of business, and of course there was that well-publicized shift to army control of mercenaries, which meant he would lose control of Wagner in Ukraine. It was obvious Putin was not supporting him anymore, perhaps due to his big mouth, perhaps due to Shoigu maneuvering to sideline risks to his ascendency. So he grew desperate and there's nothing more dangerous than a desperate man.

It's not over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

How does Prigozhin pay the Wagner troops? Where does the money come from?

Africa and other places.

It’s Prigozhin’s money?

[Anonymous]

Are the Wagner fighters loyal to Prigozhin the way Cuban rebels were loyal to Castro, or are they just in it for the money?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

How does Prigozhin pay the Wagner troops? Where does the money come from?

Africa and other places.

False. The money comes primarily from the coffers of the Russian government. Stop repeating demonstrably false talking points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gee this all seems to have taken some of the wind out of the pro-Russia trolls' sails 😆

Because so far it’s been a nothingburger
Let’s see what comes next

Nothingburger?

One word. "smuta"

When a very strong dam or bridge is structurally unsound, it takes time to break. Prigozhin was the crack. But there are no repairs or building of other dams or bridges taking place to relieve the stress? If anything, the supports are being removed, one-by-one. When it does break, it's a violent event.

I think Russia is still on the road towards anarchy within two years.

Be patient. Just watch.

Okay let’s compare notes in two years
I am not pro Russian government fwiw but I think people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is
Prigozhin will be dealt with and life will move on

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gee this all seems to have taken some of the wind out of the pro-Russia trolls' sails 😆

Because so far it’s been a nothingburger
Let’s see what comes next

Nothingburger?

One word. "smuta"

When a very strong dam or bridge is structurally unsound, it takes time to break. Prigozhin was the crack. But there are no repairs or building of other dams or bridges taking place to relieve the stress? If anything, the supports are being removed, one-by-one. When it does break, it's a violent event.

I think Russia is still on the road towards anarchy within two years.

Be patient. Just watch.

My naive heart wishes it weren’t just anarchy coming but I think you’re right.

I think it will be a more or less orderly transition of power. Some heads will fall of course but there will be nothing even like Paris these days

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

How does Prigozhin pay the Wagner troops? Where does the money come from?

Africa and other places.

False. The money comes primarily from the coffers of the Russian government. Stop repeating demonstrably false talking points.

That contains an admission that Putin has been funding all of those African coups, and propping up its dictators, warlords and terrorist groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Apparently we are inching closer to a planned Russian sabotage of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Ukraine intelligence chief recently reported that Russians have completed all their preparations for a catastrophic failure of the plant, and that all they're waiting for is the right moment. One such moment might be when Ukrainians gain control of both banks of the Dnipro. Every event that helps Ukraine and/or hinders Russia, such as the recent Wagner mutiny, increases the risk that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant explodes.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18852

Moscow and it’s cost cutting under Soviet rule was the reason Chernobyl exploded and caused god knows how many deaths (yes, I know, the official count is 28-31, end of list) and now Moscow might do it again purely out of spite?

Any Republicans want to re-examine their support for Russia?

Or Kyiv is preparing to do something at the power station and point the finger at Russia afterwards. It's not like this paper is a neutral party you know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

There are no OTHER reports of his detainment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

The same court America pays countries to ignore?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gee this all seems to have taken some of the wind out of the pro-Russia trolls' sails 😆

Because so far it’s been a nothingburger
Let’s see what comes next

Nothingburger?

One word. "smuta"

When a very strong dam or bridge is structurally unsound, it takes time to break. Prigozhin was the crack. But there are no repairs or building of other dams or bridges taking place to relieve the stress? If anything, the supports are being removed, one-by-one. When it does break, it's a violent event.

I think Russia is still on the road towards anarchy within two years.

Be patient. Just watch.

Okay let’s compare notes in two years
I am not pro Russian government fwiw but I think people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is
Prigozhin will be dealt with and life will move on

LOL it's like mainstream media is positively gagging to write the-sky-is-falling stories about Russia to have their (invariably wrong) projections come true. Behold the likes of Madame Sikorsky and NYT's Troianovsky screeching, it's civil war! sliding into chaos! instability uncertainty! great vulnerability! Who needs circus tickets when you have them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Putin's arrested Surovikin as a traitor and says he sided with Prigozhin.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Surovikin was one of the few people at the top of the Russian MoD who was running around trying to find ways to stop Prigozhin, he recorded a message to Wagner demanding they stand down, he sent attack helicopters to try and stop Wagner's convoy - none of the other Russian commands did any of that. Shoigu, Gerasimov and the rest fled, and were cowering in bunkers.

Very strange.

I was surprised at the NYT article. This was the obviously foreseeable result.

Putin throwing people under the bus (or out of a window) was an obviously foreseeable result, I'm just baffled at how it was Surovikin. And why Putin is doubling down behind support of Shoigu (also curious: Gerasimov hasn't been seen since the revolt).

Perhaps because Putin believes Shoigu is not a personal threat. Whereas more intelligent, obstreperous leaders are, and so when they begin to make too much noise, they're out.

Shoigu is who got Putin into this mess with Prigo.

I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Prigo is a former felon, and is an opportunist with a violent militia responsible for multiple human rights abuses in Central African Republic, Syria and elsewhere. He has no business anywhere near power and influence. Shoigu didn't like him. Prigo tried to capture him and Gerasimov and was forced to switch plans when the FSB cottoned on to him.

He's the worst scum in the world and does not deserve to be assassinated by Putin. He needs to be hauled in front of the Hague court and publicly tried for his many crimes.

How does Prigozhin pay the Wagner troops? Where does the money come from?

Africa and other places.

False. The money comes primarily from the coffers of the Russian government. Stop repeating demonstrably false talking points.

That contains an admission that Putin has been funding all of those African coups, and propping up its dictators, warlords and terrorist groups.

What is exactly wrong with propping up dictators?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Apparently we are inching closer to a planned Russian sabotage of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Ukraine intelligence chief recently reported that Russians have completed all their preparations for a catastrophic failure of the plant, and that all they're waiting for is the right moment. One such moment might be when Ukrainians gain control of both banks of the Dnipro. Every event that helps Ukraine and/or hinders Russia, such as the recent Wagner mutiny, increases the risk that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant explodes.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18852

Moscow and it’s cost cutting under Soviet rule was the reason Chernobyl exploded and caused god knows how many deaths (yes, I know, the official count is 28-31, end of list) and now Moscow might do it again purely out of spite?

Any Republicans want to re-examine their support for Russia?

Or Kyiv is preparing to do something at the power station and point the finger at Russia afterwards. It's not like this paper is a neutral party you know.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Right. Ukraine is going to poison their own soil for thousands of years, just for fun.

We believe you, PP