New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

here is what the school says:

"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."

I don't see anything about selectivity

Now read the VDOE page on Governor's Schools.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

[Anonymous]

good for the state, Fairfax runs the school and seems to have a different mission

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:good for the state, Fairfax runs the school and seems to have a different mission

And the state has established that they are A-OK with that. There are other states that provide similar opportunities, though, and would love to have anyone who is dissatisfied with what's going on with respect to TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

here is what the school says:

"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."

I don't see anything about selectivity

Now read the VDOE page on Governor's Schools.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

I'm not trying to advocate resource hoarding. I just think that the nebulous selection methods and very low ceiling selection methods are not going to work in any meaningful way. There are plenty of talented Black kids in FCPS who easily have TJ-worthy stats. I'd almost prefer a system that used the old TJ tests + essays, and then allocated slots to TJ proportional to the racial representation for each group over whatever absurd thing they're doing now. The goal should be to stretch out the top few percent, so the brilliant kids rise to the top and are easily identified. It shouldn't be to condense the top 30%, so you can't even distinguish between a highly gifted child and a garden variety bright upper middle class child.

This won't do anything to increase the FARMS rate of kids at TJ, which is quite low. The only solution to that is to prioritize early interventions and focus on these groups a lot in ES and MS. Addressing it at the high school level is simply too late and is more likely to sabotage bright FARMS kids than it is to help them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

How do you propose that they identify the small pool of kids with remarkably different learning needs? Using middle school GPA is a pretty sad joke, unless they're going to make the courses much more rigorous and As much more rare. Using grades alone, they cannot differentiate between an above average, somewhat motivated, privileged kid and a highly gifted kid. Also, grades are just as susceptible to people with resources gaming the system by getting tutors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

How do you propose that they identify the small pool of kids with remarkably different learning needs? Using middle school GPA is a pretty sad joke, unless they're going to make the courses much more rigorous and As much more rare. Using grades alone, they cannot differentiate between an above average, somewhat motivated, privileged kid and a highly gifted kid. Also, grades are just as susceptible to people with resources gaming the system by getting tutors.

then just open the whole thing to lottery. Kids interested can put their names in a hat. No favoritism and no way to game the system

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

here is what the school says:

"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."

I don't see anything about selectivity

Now read the VDOE page on Governor's Schools.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

I'm not trying to advocate resource hoarding. I just think that the nebulous selection methods and very low ceiling selection methods are not going to work in any meaningful way. There are plenty of talented Black kids in FCPS who easily have TJ-worthy stats. I'd almost prefer a system that used the old TJ tests + essays, and then allocated slots to TJ proportional to the racial representation for each group over whatever absurd thing they're doing now. The goal should be to stretch out the top few percent, so the brilliant kids rise to the top and are easily identified. It shouldn't be to condense the top 30%, so you can't even distinguish between a highly gifted child and a garden variety bright upper middle class child.

This won't do anything to increase the FARMS rate of kids at TJ, which is quite low. The only solution to that is to prioritize early interventions and focus on these groups a lot in ES and MS. Addressing it at the high school level is simply too late and is more likely to sabotage bright FARMS kids than it is to help them.

Those interventions will be much more successful in the early stages if those kids have people in their community who have attended and been successful at a place like TJ. You can't imagine what a world of difference just a few of those kids makes for the hundreds beneath them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

How do you propose that they identify the small pool of kids with remarkably different learning needs? Using middle school GPA is a pretty sad joke, unless they're going to make the courses much more rigorous and As much more rare. Using grades alone, they cannot differentiate between an above average, somewhat motivated, privileged kid and a highly gifted kid. Also, grades are just as susceptible to people with resources gaming the system by getting tutors.

I do think in the end that TJ Admissions will realize that they gain more from teacher recommendations than they potentially lose through bias. That's the one huge mistake I think they made here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

here is what the school says:

"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."

I don't see anything about selectivity

Now read the VDOE page on Governor's Schools.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

I'm not trying to advocate resource hoarding. I just think that the nebulous selection methods and very low ceiling selection methods are not going to work in any meaningful way. There are plenty of talented Black kids in FCPS who easily have TJ-worthy stats. I'd almost prefer a system that used the old TJ tests + essays, and then allocated slots to TJ proportional to the racial representation for each group over whatever absurd thing they're doing now. The goal should be to stretch out the top few percent, so the brilliant kids rise to the top and are easily identified. It shouldn't be to condense the top 30%, so you can't even distinguish between a highly gifted child and a garden variety bright upper middle class child.

This won't do anything to increase the FARMS rate of kids at TJ, which is quite low. The only solution to that is to prioritize early interventions and focus on these groups a lot in ES and MS. Addressing it at the high school level is simply too late and is more likely to sabotage bright FARMS kids than it is to help them.

Those interventions will be much more successful in the early stages if those kids have people in their community who have attended and been successful at a place like TJ. You can't imagine what a world of difference just a few of those kids makes for the hundreds beneath them.

and best of all, it will take a decade to know if they have worked during which TJ can continue with business as usual. Maybe when they fail, we can come up with another plan that will take a similar amount of time to evaluate while TJ gets to stay the same

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

here is what the school says:

"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."

I don't see anything about selectivity

Now read the VDOE page on Governor's Schools.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

I'm not trying to advocate resource hoarding. I just think that the nebulous selection methods and very low ceiling selection methods are not going to work in any meaningful way. There are plenty of talented Black kids in FCPS who easily have TJ-worthy stats. I'd almost prefer a system that used the old TJ tests + essays, and then allocated slots to TJ proportional to the racial representation for each group over whatever absurd thing they're doing now. The goal should be to stretch out the top few percent, so the brilliant kids rise to the top and are easily identified. It shouldn't be to condense the top 30%, so you can't even distinguish between a highly gifted child and a garden variety bright upper middle class child.

This won't do anything to increase the FARMS rate of kids at TJ, which is quite low. The only solution to that is to prioritize early interventions and focus on these groups a lot in ES and MS. Addressing it at the high school level is simply too late and is more likely to sabotage bright FARMS kids than it is to help them.

Those interventions will be much more successful in the early stages if those kids have people in their community who have attended and been successful at a place like TJ. You can't imagine what a world of difference just a few of those kids makes for the hundreds beneath them.

DP, but it's so clear this is premised on declaring that TJ students drawn from certain areas are "success stories" who will inspire those "beneath them" to greatness.

Never mind that it remains to be seen whether students who couldn't handle TJ today will succeed there or whether TJ will be less demanding precisely so a less qualified cohort can be deemed to "thrive" there. Most expect the latter.

And of course if higher achieving kids inspires those "beneath them," then you're basically pulling out kids who might have been role models at schools like Lewis and Mount Vernon and sending them to a school - TJ - that fewer students from their communities will attend.

It's tokenism run amok to make the sillies like Ricardy Anderson look good because a few kids from Holmes and Poe will be attending TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

How do you propose that they identify the small pool of kids with remarkably different learning needs? Using middle school GPA is a pretty sad joke, unless they're going to make the courses much more rigorous and As much more rare. Using grades alone, they cannot differentiate between an above average, somewhat motivated, privileged kid and a highly gifted kid. Also, grades are just as susceptible to people with resources gaming the system by getting tutors.

The problem is inherent within your question - the pool isn't nearly as small as people think it is, and it's not about remarkably different learning needs - it's about access to remarkably different learning opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

here is what the school says:

"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."

I don't see anything about selectivity

Now read the VDOE page on Governor's Schools.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

I'm not trying to advocate resource hoarding. I just think that the nebulous selection methods and very low ceiling selection methods are not going to work in any meaningful way. There are plenty of talented Black kids in FCPS who easily have TJ-worthy stats. I'd almost prefer a system that used the old TJ tests + essays, and then allocated slots to TJ proportional to the racial representation for each group over whatever absurd thing they're doing now. The goal should be to stretch out the top few percent, so the brilliant kids rise to the top and are easily identified. It shouldn't be to condense the top 30%, so you can't even distinguish between a highly gifted child and a garden variety bright upper middle class child.

This won't do anything to increase the FARMS rate of kids at TJ, which is quite low. The only solution to that is to prioritize early interventions and focus on these groups a lot in ES and MS. Addressing it at the high school level is simply too late and is more likely to sabotage bright FARMS kids than it is to help them.

Those interventions will be much more successful in the early stages if those kids have people in their community who have attended and been successful at a place like TJ. You can't imagine what a world of difference just a few of those kids makes for the hundreds beneath them.

DP, but it's so clear this is premised on declaring that TJ students drawn from certain areas are "success stories" who will inspire those "beneath them" to greatness.

Never mind that it remains to be seen whether students who couldn't handle TJ today will succeed there or whether TJ will be less demanding precisely so a less qualified cohort can be deemed to "thrive" there. Most expect the latter.

And of course if higher achieving kids inspires those "beneath them," then you're basically pulling out kids who might have been role models at schools like Lewis and Mount Vernon and sending them to a school - TJ - that fewer students from their communities will attend.

It's tokenism run amok to make the sillies like Ricardy Anderson look good because a few kids from Holmes and Poe will be attending TJ.

You're not pulling them out. They're applying to go to a school that they're interested in and they're being selected to go there.

You might as well argue that the communities would be better served by those same students being "role models" at NVCC when the point is for them to be role models at the middle and elementary school level.

It is INARGUABLE that Carson's environment is improved by the community's belief that TJ is accessible and desirable. The same would apply at Poe or Holmes or Whitman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

How do you propose that they identify the small pool of kids with remarkably different learning needs? Using middle school GPA is a pretty sad joke, unless they're going to make the courses much more rigorous and As much more rare. Using grades alone, they cannot differentiate between an above average, somewhat motivated, privileged kid and a highly gifted kid. Also, grades are just as susceptible to people with resources gaming the system by getting tutors.

then just open the whole thing to lottery. Kids interested can put their names in a hat. No favoritism and no way to game the system

Why not take a hybrid approach? They could still use the current process to identify the top 50-100 kids who actually have the remarkably different learning needs and admit them. Then, they could lottery off the remaining 400 slots to any kid with good enough grades who wants to attend.

There is a legitimate concern that any new selection methods might exclude the highly gifted kids who need more challenge than they would receive at their base high schools and who have already demonstrated in some way that they are above and beyond. There is also a legitimate view that aside from those 100 kids, there are another 2000 across the county who would all be capable of succeeding at TJ. Let those kids enter some sort of regionally or racially representative lottery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

How do you propose that they identify the small pool of kids with remarkably different learning needs? Using middle school GPA is a pretty sad joke, unless they're going to make the courses much more rigorous and As much more rare. Using grades alone, they cannot differentiate between an above average, somewhat motivated, privileged kid and a highly gifted kid. Also, grades are just as susceptible to people with resources gaming the system by getting tutors.

then just open the whole thing to lottery. Kids interested can put their names in a hat. No favoritism and no way to game the system

Why not take a hybrid approach? They could still use the current process to identify the top 50-100 kids who actually have the remarkably different learning needs and admit them. Then, they could lottery off the remaining 400 slots to any kid with good enough grades who wants to attend.

There is a legitimate concern that any new selection methods might exclude the highly gifted kids who need more challenge than they would receive at their base high schools and who have already demonstrated in some way that they are above and beyond. There is also a legitimate view that aside from those 100 kids, there are another 2000 across the county who would all be capable of succeeding at TJ. Let those kids enter some sort of regionally or racially representative lottery.

This process is not going to miss out on those kids. There are just a lot fewer of them at a school like Carson or Longfellow than parents would like to believe.

Believe it or not, TJ Admissions knows what they're doing and are pretty good at their jobs despite being woefully understaffed (for regular operations, not for application review).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It would really help our case if you could quote the section that talks about test-taking ability and achievement in STEM competitions - can you highlight those for us?

How do you propose that they identify the small pool of kids with remarkably different learning needs? Using middle school GPA is a pretty sad joke, unless they're going to make the courses much more rigorous and As much more rare. Using grades alone, they cannot differentiate between an above average, somewhat motivated, privileged kid and a highly gifted kid. Also, grades are just as susceptible to people with resources gaming the system by getting tutors.

then just open the whole thing to lottery. Kids interested can put their names in a hat. No favoritism and no way to game the system

Why not take a hybrid approach? They could still use the current process to identify the top 50-100 kids who actually have the remarkably different learning needs and admit them. Then, they could lottery off the remaining 400 slots to any kid with good enough grades who wants to attend.

There is a legitimate concern that any new selection methods might exclude the highly gifted kids who need more challenge than they would receive at their base high schools and who have already demonstrated in some way that they are above and beyond. There is also a legitimate view that aside from those 100 kids, there are another 2000 across the county who would all be capable of succeeding at TJ. Let those kids enter some sort of regionally or racially representative lottery.

This process is not going to miss out on those kids. There are just a lot fewer of them at a school like Carson or Longfellow than parents would like to believe.

Believe it or not, TJ Admissions knows what they're doing and are pretty good at their jobs despite being woefully understaffed (for regular operations, not for application review).

+1. There really isn't THAT much difference in what admissions is going to be looking for before and after this shift. They're just going to be emphasizing different tools for finding it.