UVA Gang rape

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

You obviously do not know how rape investigations work.

so I’ll put you down in the camp of those assuming the investigation will be botched and her allegations will not be taken seriously.

Will be is in the future tense. Was botched... yes it WAS botched. As soon as the university knew about the rapes they should be required reporters like every other teacher/administrator. I am not sure why Universities are not required reporters.

The investigation is so tainted at this point there is nothing the police can do, they can't "botch" what is already a FUBAR... they evidence is gone, destroyed.

I don't care how seriously the police take an investigation, they will not bring charges against somebody if they know they can not win it in court. They might just charge the guys to satisfy public opinion on this one case but they will not be tried or convicted on "witness testimony".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

OK, I'll put you in the "women should report rapes, but we shouldn't believe them when they do" camp.

Is this your idea of "fair and respectful treatment"?

Woman, reporting rape to the police: X raped me.
Police: Prove it.

Also, do you think that this is a good way to get women to report their rapes? The number of women who don't report their rapes is far, far greater than the number of women who make a false accusation of rape.

seriously? Is this what they do? No attempt to gather physical evidence? No talking to witnesses? Seems like the Duke prosecutor really went overboard the other way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

You obviously do not know how rape investigations work.

so I’ll put you down in the camp of those assuming the investigation will be botched and her allegations will not be taken seriously.

Will be is in the future tense. Was botched... yes it WAS botched. As soon as the university knew about the rapes they should be required reporters like every other teacher/administrator. I am not sure why Universities are not required reporters.

The investigation is so tainted at this point there is nothing the police can do, they can't "botch" what is already a FUBAR... they evidence is gone, destroyed.

I don't care how seriously the police take an investigation, they will not bring charges against somebody if they know they can not win it in court. They might just charge the guys to satisfy public opinion on this one case but they will not be tried or convicted on "witness testimony".

There you go again. Whether there was a rape is a legal conclusion. You probably mean once the university knew about the rape allegations

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

You obviously do not know how rape investigations work.

so I’ll put you down in the camp of those assuming the investigation will be botched and her allegations will not be taken seriously.

Will be is in the future tense. Was botched... yes it WAS botched. As soon as the university knew about the rapes they should be required reporters like every other teacher/administrator. I am not sure why Universities are not required reporters.

The investigation is so tainted at this point there is nothing the police can do, they can't "botch" what is already a FUBAR... they evidence is gone, destroyed.

I don't care how seriously the police take an investigation, they will not bring charges against somebody if they know they can not win it in court. They might just charge the guys to satisfy public opinion on this one case but they will not be tried or convicted on "witness testimony".

There you go again. Whether there was a rape is a legal conclusion. You probably mean once the university knew about the rape allegations

NO. I mean rapes. You do know that UVA students have admitted to RAPE and the university felt bad telling the police after they were nice enough to apologize to their victim.

UVA administration KNOWS THAT GIRLS ARE RAPED, HAVE CONFESSIONS and do not report it to the police. That is criminal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

You obviously do not know how rape investigations work.

so I’ll put you down in the camp of those assuming the investigation will be botched and her allegations will not be taken seriously.

Will be is in the future tense. Was botched... yes it WAS botched. As soon as the university knew about the rapes they should be required reporters like every other teacher/administrator. I am not sure why Universities are not required reporters.

The investigation is so tainted at this point there is nothing the police can do, they can't "botch" what is already a FUBAR... they evidence is gone, destroyed.

I don't care how seriously the police take an investigation, they will not bring charges against somebody if they know they can not win it in court. They might just charge the guys to satisfy public opinion on this one case but they will not be tried or convicted on "witness testimony".

There you go again. Whether there was a rape is a legal conclusion. You probably mean once the university knew about the rape allegations

NO. I mean rapes. You do know that UVA students have admitted to RAPE and the university felt bad telling the police after they were nice enough to apologize to their victim.

UVA administration KNOWS THAT GIRLS ARE RAPED, HAVE CONFESSIONS and do not report it to the police. That is criminal.

What law, statute, or ordinance requires UVA or anyone else to report an allegation or confession to the police? What law do you think UVA, in this case, is violating?

Has the school told these women that they are prohibited from going to the police?

Also, I can only imagine the outcry if the university (or any university) took the decision out of the (alleged) victim's hands and reported it to the police without her permission. The ultra feminists would say that the school is treating her like a child and not an adult, that the school is too paternalistic, that the school is re-victimizing the woman, making public a very private matter, etc. It isn't like the police are going to keep it a secret or confidential matter.

I am not defending any insitution. I am simply saying that it isn't as simple as some people here (the ones who seem to want universities to set up firing squads any time a female student alleges a sexual assualt, without any fact finding or discovery of any potential other point of view) want to make it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try thinking about it this way. What if someone accused you of a horrific crime which you did not commit? However, your name is plastered all over the media linking you to this terrible crime. However, charges are never pressed so you have no opportunity to defend yourself nor clear your name publicly from these charges.

That would completely suck. Your life is ruined. You've done nothing wrong and you have no way to change the outcome.

This did happen to an FCPS teacher in No. Virginia. Charged by a female student with sexual assault. He fought the charges, went to trial and he won. She was lying. But he lost his job, can’t get hired and owes the legal fees, which were substantial.

This happens. But it is SO, SO much more rare than rapists getting away with rape. (Many of them over and over again, many of them leaving a woman dead or severely injured.)
There is little incentive for a woman to falsely report rape. There is sadly little incentive for her to report rape period. Reporting it often makes her life worse. THIS is what we need to change. Be more supportive of women who were raped, making her safety a priority.

And besides rape, just violence against women period. We need to stop being so accepting of it. It starts with language. Pay attention to the violence in the language of those around you, never mind the more obvious advertising and movie industry, never mind the world of video games, which is rife with insane sexist violence. Maybe these rapey frat boys spent high school steeped in these things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

You obviously do not know how rape investigations work.

so I’ll put you down in the camp of those assuming the investigation will be botched and her allegations will not be taken seriously.

Will be is in the future tense. Was botched... yes it WAS botched. As soon as the university knew about the rapes they should be required reporters like every other teacher/administrator. I am not sure why Universities are not required reporters.

The investigation is so tainted at this point there is nothing the police can do, they can't "botch" what is already a FUBAR... they evidence is gone, destroyed.

I don't care how seriously the police take an investigation, they will not bring charges against somebody if they know they can not win it in court. They might just charge the guys to satisfy public opinion on this one case but they will not be tried or convicted on "witness testimony".

There you go again. Whether there was a rape is a legal conclusion. You probably mean once the university knew about the rape allegations

NO. I mean rapes. You do know that UVA students have admitted to RAPE and the university felt bad telling the police after they were nice enough to apologize to their victim.

UVA administration KNOWS THAT GIRLS ARE RAPED, HAVE CONFESSIONS and do not report it to the police. That is criminal.

What law, statute, or ordinance requires UVA or anyone else to report an allegation or confession to the police? What law do you think UVA, in this case, is violating?

Has the school told these women that they are prohibited from going to the police?

Also, I can only imagine the outcry if the university (or any university) took the decision out of the (alleged) victim's hands and reported it to the police without her permission. The ultra feminists would say that the school is treating her like a child and not an adult, that the school is too paternalistic, that the school is re-victimizing the woman, making public a very private matter, etc. It isn't like the police are going to keep it a secret or confidential matter.

I am not defending any insitution. I am simply saying that it isn't as simple as some people here (the ones who seem to want universities to set up firing squads any time a female student alleges a sexual assualt, without any fact finding or discovery of any potential other point of view) want to make it.

It's moral law, one they obviously don't teach at UVA... you obviously missed that in your years of education. Like I said, Universities SHOULD be required reporters like all other teachers/doctors/school administrators/nurses and every other profession in the world that is required to report suspicion of abuse.

Yes. The university has been found to have lied to the women and told them that campus was not in the jurisdiction of the police.

UVA has had many efforts (though now I think it is to save face) on how to make a report when a girl is in an abusive relationship thanks to the efforts of Yardley Love"s family. But when a girl goes to the University to report being abused, nothing.

I don't want the university to do anything but to provide emotional support and call the police and keep their mouths shut so a real investigation can be conducted. I don't want universities to be able to "investigate" or even discuss the report because all they do is warn the boys that they need to lawyer up. If the girl is lying the police will find out and the boy can report her to UVA and have her apologize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why we're not rioting in the streets about this. Seriously. Enough is enough.

Because this whole story is made up and many of us are impartial enough to see it. Violence against women is abhorrent. So is patently lying to get attention. This story is ludicrously fictitious.

You cannot be this fucking disgusting and/or stupid?

I dunno. The Duke rape charges turned out to be completely fictitious.

Yes, it's true. Rarely, there are rape accusations that are false. (The Duke lacrosse team case, for example, which happened in 2006.) Should we therefore assume that all rape accusations are false, unless proven otherwise? And what about the many rapes that occur, but the rape victim never publicly accuses anybody?

So, by your "logic", we should assume that all rape accusations are true, regardless of evidence or lack thereof? In other words, "innocent until proven guilty" is meaningless and a simple accusation should suffice?

I happen to believe what happened in the RS article is true and absolutely disgusting. However, because there is no proof - yet - I am very hesitant to jump on the bandwagon. Yes, rape is a big problem, especially on college campuses. But there has to be a presumption of innocence until one is absolutely proven guilty. Otherwise, what's the point of our justice system?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Try thinking about it this way. What if someone accused you of a horrific crime which you did not commit? However, your name is plastered all over the media linking you to this terrible crime. However, charges are never pressed so you have no opportunity to defend yourself nor clear your name publicly from these charges.

That would completely suck. Your life is ruined. You've done nothing wrong and you have no way to change the outcome.

+1000
Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try thinking about it this way. What if someone accused you of a horrific crime which you did not commit? However, your name is plastered all over the media linking you to this terrible crime. However, charges are never pressed so you have no opportunity to defend yourself nor clear your name publicly from these charges.

That would completely suck. Your life is ruined. You've done nothing wrong and you have no way to change the outcome.

This did happen to an FCPS teacher in No. Virginia. Charged by a female student with sexual assault. He fought the charges, went to trial and he won. She was lying. But he lost his job, can’t get hired and owes the legal fees, which were substantial.

This happens. But it is SO, SO much more rare than rapists getting away with rape. (Many of them over and over again, many of them leaving a woman dead or severely injured.)
There is little incentive for a woman to falsely report rape. There is sadly little incentive for her to report rape period. Reporting it often makes her life worse. THIS is what we need to change. Be more supportive of women who were raped, making her safety a priority.

And besides rape, just violence against women period. We need to stop being so accepting of it. It starts with language. Pay attention to the violence in the language of those around you, never mind the more obvious advertising and movie industry, never mind the world of video games, which is rife with insane sexist violence. Maybe these rapey frat boys spent high school steeped in these things.

Sounds like you are perfectly fine with false accusations that destroy someone's life, because you've personally concluded it doesn't happen very often. You'd be surprised. Some girls and women make up things to get attention. They can be lying through their teeth and very convincing until their stories fall apart.

I would not use terms like "rapey frat boys" unless and until, at a minimum, there are arrests in this case. Until then, you are simply embracing a narrative because it aligns with your existing beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why we're not rioting in the streets about this. Seriously. Enough is enough.

Because this whole story is made up and many of us are impartial enough to see it. Violence against women is abhorrent. So is patently lying to get attention. This story is ludicrously fictitious.

You cannot be this fucking disgusting and/or stupid?

I dunno. The Duke rape charges turned out to be completely fictitious.

Yes, it's true. Rarely, there are rape accusations that are false. (The Duke lacrosse team case, for example, which happened in 2006.) Should we therefore assume that all rape accusations are false, unless proven otherwise? And what about the many rapes that occur, but the rape victim never publicly accuses anybody?

So, by your "logic", we should assume that all rape accusations are true, regardless of evidence or lack thereof? In other words, "innocent until proven guilty" is meaningless and a simple accusation should suffice?

I happen to believe what happened in the RS article is true and absolutely disgusting. However, because there is no proof - yet - I am very hesitant to jump on the bandwagon. Yes, rape is a big problem, especially on college campuses. But there has to be a presumption of innocence until one is absolutely proven guilty. Otherwise, what's the point of our justice system?

There is a LEGAL presumption of innocence, in a court of law. But we are not a court of law. Do you hold this same standard of "innocent until proven guilty" in your mind for other kinds of cases? For example, suppose somebody stole my bicycle. Would you similarly argue that you will keep an open mind about my bicycle having been stolen until there is a trial, and somebody is convicted of stealing my bicycle? What if the police never figure out who stole my bicycle, or they figure it out but can't prove it? Does that mean that my bicycle wasn't stolen?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why we're not rioting in the streets about this. Seriously. Enough is enough.

Because this whole story is made up and many of us are impartial enough to see it. Violence against women is abhorrent. So is patently lying to get attention. This story is ludicrously fictitious.

You cannot be this fucking disgusting and/or stupid?

I dunno. The Duke rape charges turned out to be completely fictitious.

Yes, it's true. Rarely, there are rape accusations that are false. (The Duke lacrosse team case, for example, which happened in 2006.) Should we therefore assume that all rape accusations are false, unless proven otherwise? And what about the many rapes that occur, but the rape victim never publicly accuses anybody?

So, by your "logic", we should assume that all rape accusations are true, regardless of evidence or lack thereof? In other words, "innocent until proven guilty" is meaningless and a simple accusation should suffice?

I happen to believe what happened in the RS article is true and absolutely disgusting. However, because there is no proof - yet - I am very hesitant to jump on the bandwagon. Yes, rape is a big problem, especially on college campuses. But there has to be a presumption of innocence until one is absolutely proven guilty. Otherwise, what's the point of our justice system?

innocent until proven guilty is only true ... IN A COURT OF LAW. During an investigation you only need reasonable suspicion. So yes... every allegation of rape should be investigated by the POLICE, not the university. If there is no evidence, there still may have been a rape but it can't be proven, so the case gets dropped. but every case needs to be investigated by the police.

[Anonymous]

Clery Act and Title IX required UVA to report all rapes in their federal statistics. They didn't do that.

As for the boys, failure to report the rape initially may not be a crime, but aiding and abetting the cover up is. The can be charged with "Accessory After the Fact" even if they weren't in the room, but found out about it later and help conceal it in any way, such as cleaning up the room. Any actions to conceal the crime or help the perpetrators avoid capture is a crime in itself. If they received and then deleted text messages about it or other communications, that is a crime. It they cleaned up the room, that is a crime. If they threw away the beer bottles, broken glass, etc., that is a crime. If they entered into any sort of pact to never tell anyone about it, that is a crime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Sounds like you are perfectly fine with false accusations that destroy someone's life, because you've personally concluded it doesn't happen very often. You'd be surprised. Some girls and women make up things to get attention. They can be lying through their teeth and very convincing until their stories fall apart.

I would not use terms like "rapey frat boys" unless and until, at a minimum, there are arrests in this case. Until then, you are simply embracing a narrative because it aligns with your existing beliefs.

I'm not the PP. But given the facts that

1. there are many, many rapes that women did not report
2. false accusations of rape are rare
3. one of the reasons women do not report their rapes is that people assume they're lying

I'll go with the idea that when a woman accuses somebody of rape, she's telling the truth unless there's evidence that she's not. Whereas you seem to be going with the idea that when a woman accuses somebody of rape, she's lying unless there's evidence she's not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try thinking about it this way. What if someone accused you of a horrific crime which you did not commit? However, your name is plastered all over the media linking you to this terrible crime. However, charges are never pressed so you have no opportunity to defend yourself nor clear your name publicly from these charges.

That would completely suck. Your life is ruined. You've done nothing wrong and you have no way to change the outcome.

Try thinking about it this way: why are you identifying more with the possible rapist than with the possible rape victim? What are the consequences of assuming that rape charges are false?

Clearly, you don't have a son. No one here is "identifying more with the possible rapist than with the possible rape victim". Everyone wants to ses a rapist behind bars and to paint it otherwise is irresponsible and insulting. But if the standard can't simply be to point a finger and say "he did it," arrest him. There has got to be some kind of evidence. Whether it's the men in question admitting what they did, or actual physical evidence - which of course, there is none of since Jackie didn't go to the hospital. That's why it's so incredibly important for rape victims to report immediately.