Big 3 Nightmare

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

DP. You just don't want to accept the truth, do you? College admissions reps understand all about grading at different schools and they factor this into their decisions. Most top colleges even have their own, proprietary weighting systems, where they take your kid's transcript apart and reweight everything according to what they value. How many times does this need to be repeated?

I'm sorry your kid didn't get into their first choice. But you spending hours here blaming everybody else is a bad look.

No they aren’t weighing the schools properly and factoring this into their decisions. This is what 1/2 the people on this thread have been saying. And my kid isn’t apply to school yet.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This thread seems to be primarily about GDS. Is Sidwell similar or STA/NCS?

Also, how does GDS address the needs of families who are seeking need based and merit aid? Do they allow those families to apply more broadly? DC is on considerable FA at another school and I would not be ok if DC had to limit options for matching with a school with adequate funding because of arbitrary school rules.

The NCS process is much more transparent and you have access to more data. That does not mean everyone at NCS is thrilled with their outcomes or with the process, but having been through it at both schools, we found the NCS approach less stressful. There are very few scenarios where having less information is better than having more information.

You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS.
Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin.
Not throwing shade at these schools. They are excellent but lots of kids who had a more chill HS experience also end up at the same place. How is the stress and crazy amount of work at top high schools like GDS and NCS worth it?

Bates parent here from a highly regarded DMV public school. Your mindset is 1990s. The median GPA for my kid's HS for Bates was 4.6w. Wisconsin is a similarly tough admit nowadays. None of the kids who go to these schools from the DC area had a "chill HS experience." Sorry that your kid has to slum with mine, we're very glad that we chose not to put our kids in overpriced mediocre privates only to end up in the exact same place as hardworking public school kids. Hope your kid didn't inherit your sense of entitlement.

Is your highly regarded public school in MoCo? because if it is, everyone is aware now of the unlimited retakes, the C + B = A as the final grade, and equity-driven GPA outcomes. I'm not saying your kid isn't deserving. I am saying that any moderately intelligent kid attending at MoCo HS will emerge with a 4.2w or better just by breathing.

This is not the case at GDS, NCS, STA and especially Sidwell, where two English teachers will not give As. To anyone.

I don’t understand why you are being rude. C +B = B in MCPS. It does not equal an A. I agree that there is grade inflation in MCPS but the kids work hard. If you have a problem with the English teachers at Sidwell, you should try to address it at your school rather than trying to feel better by insulting MCPS. Some of the MCPS teachers are also pretty stingy with As.

Unless you've had a kid at GDS, NCS, etc, you can't say they're comparable. They're not. My kid is on a sports team with all MCPS kids who take the hardest classes, very high GPAs, etc, and they don't work even half as hard as their counterparts in top privates. Not saying they're not smart, but their high school experience is absolutely chill in comparison.

My kid went to Jackson Reed and is now at an Ivy. She took 6 APs junior year and almost had a breakdown because there was so much work. She was up until 2am every night. She also had multiple intensive activities that required a lot of time. I’m not saying that JR is as good as GDS but there are some dynamite kids there and I’m sure MCPS is the same. JR still does rankings and my daughter was not even top 5. Every school, public and private, has some amazing kids. And they are all competing for the same schools

Yes, my kids came out of DCPS and many of their friends are at JR and some are very impressive. However, being up well past midnight is par for the course for the baseline (not AP) course in even 9th and 10th grade at some of these Big3 schools. Then 6 APs would be impossible. My kids' schools give 1.5 hours a night per AP course. That ends would be 9 hours of homework nightly if a kid took 6 APs.

I think what the frustration is, is that the Big private school kids are doing the equivalent of your daughter's JR course load every year for 4 years, getting a mixture of As and Bs (because many teachers simply don't give As) and then have no chance in hell of the Ivies or (as of 2023) any school in the top 40.

If I had to do this again, I may not have moved them and we would have stuck with JR. Their high school years have trained them to be phenomenal students but their options for college have really narrowed by our choice to move them from DCPS to private.

This isn't true, at least for 9th and 10th--I know kids at Sidwell and NCS. To the extent it's true for the rare kid out there, after factoring in ECs, it's child abuse. And you paid $50k a year for it.

Your point about APs isn't clear. APs are a form of credentialing, where the public school kids are proving they learned the material inside and out. Kids at a Big 3 don't need that credentialing, which is why we all know that college admissions counselors don't expect as many AP classes from private school kids as from public school kids. Equally, you need to stop complaining that public school kids who took 12 APs didn't learn anything.

My kids in MCPS had teachers that wouldn't give A's either. For example, in AP Calc II. And the colleges' regional reps understand this and have already factored it in. So no using continuing to complain about it.

Also, to the RMIB booster: few kids at RMIB are gunning for MIT, instead they want ivies, and anyway RMIB with the international baccalaureate isn't a fertile ground for MIT to recruit in.

Bottom line: colleges are no longer simply accepting kids with "solid grades" and "solid ECs" and top test scores because you could afford to prep them up the wazoo. Your kid needs top grades (unweighted GPA, and factoring in what the admissions reps know about your school's grading policies) and to knock the ECs out of the ballpark with state and preferably national recognition (like my kid did, coming from public).
- A dozen APs aren't a boost except as credentialing, as pointed out above (and the weighting for APs doesn't change anything because most top colleges take your kid's transcript apart and run it through their own weighting schemes).
- Legacy is no longer a hook at most colleges unless your legacy kid with "solid ECs" comes with a huge donation.
- Being able to pay for intensive test prep from junior year (we know one private school family who did this from HS freshman year) is no longer a boost in a test-optional environment.

How hypocritical if the goal is equity. Do you have any idea how expensive ECs are to participate in? How most kids have zero access to scientific research or whatever? Test scores are the most equitable thing out there. Poor kids are working at Burger King after school as their EC.

No, test scores reflect expensive and tailored tutoring (we've been there), and poor kids are stuck with the generic once-a-week-for-one-month tutoring their HS offers. But you know this....

Colleges love kids that worked after school instead of flying their horse around the country. If you put work in your application, combined with great grades and recs, it's like admissions gold. But you know this....

Lots of public schools have practically free athletic options, even crew at several MCPS schools. DC's ivy had lots of football and baseball recruits. Not everything has to be about fencing (we've also been there). But you know this....

Oh yeah colleges are falling all over themselves for the kids with good grades who went to rough schools and worked at BK after school.

This is a fantasy to make yourself feel better.

This is how the world works these days. You added the part about "rough schools" and those kids do face extra hurdles. But yes, U Penn will take a Montgomery Blair kid who worked 4-6 hrs/day to support their family and save for college over your pampered kid with "solid ECs" in a heartbeat.

No they won’t, because that Montgomery Blair kid will not have the grades/classes to even get a second look. The myth that poor/first-gen kids waltz into top colleges because of URM preferences is just that- a myth. The very few extraordinary kids who work substantial PT jobs and take APs and get great grades? Sure. But it is extremely hard to do that. “Poor” kids are not just like your kid except poor.

Except we're talking about "extraordinary" kids when we talk about ivy admissions, whether they come from public or private. The hard-working first gen kid isn't a myth, you just don't know any.

The idea that a nice private school kid with "solid ECs" (as opposed to, you know, national recognition) can waltz into an ivy is a myth, though.

Your kid's real problem is that they were competing with their own classmates who had superior credentials. Like national recognition in an EC, higher grades, better teacher recs, or a rich or famous parent. No, I don't mean legacy, which doesn't help anymore unless you're a major donor.

Stop blaming public school kids.

This is a really good point. If you are not the top kid or two applying to a specific colleges from your high school, you won't be selected from what I have seen. Private or public, is you first need to beat out your own classmates before you go against the other competition.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This thread seems to be primarily about GDS. Is Sidwell similar or STA/NCS?

Also, how does GDS address the needs of families who are seeking need based and merit aid? Do they allow those families to apply more broadly? DC is on considerable FA at another school and I would not be ok if DC had to limit options for matching with a school with adequate funding because of arbitrary school rules.

The NCS process is much more transparent and you have access to more data. That does not mean everyone at NCS is thrilled with their outcomes or with the process, but having been through it at both schools, we found the NCS approach less stressful. There are very few scenarios where having less information is better than having more information.

You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS.
Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin.
Not throwing shade at these schools. They are excellent but lots of kids who had a more chill HS experience also end up at the same place. How is the stress and crazy amount of work at top high schools like GDS and NCS worth it?

Bates parent here from a highly regarded DMV public school. Your mindset is 1990s. The median GPA for my kid's HS for Bates was 4.6w. Wisconsin is a similarly tough admit nowadays. None of the kids who go to these schools from the DC area had a "chill HS experience." Sorry that your kid has to slum with mine, we're very glad that we chose not to put our kids in overpriced mediocre privates only to end up in the exact same place as hardworking public school kids. Hope your kid didn't inherit your sense of entitlement.

Is your highly regarded public school in MoCo? because if it is, everyone is aware now of the unlimited retakes, the C + B = A as the final grade, and equity-driven GPA outcomes. I'm not saying your kid isn't deserving. I am saying that any moderately intelligent kid attending at MoCo HS will emerge with a 4.2w or better just by breathing.

This is not the case at GDS, NCS, STA and especially Sidwell, where two English teachers will not give As. To anyone.

I don’t understand why you are being rude. C +B = B in MCPS. It does not equal an A. I agree that there is grade inflation in MCPS but the kids work hard. If you have a problem with the English teachers at Sidwell, you should try to address it at your school rather than trying to feel better by insulting MCPS. Some of the MCPS teachers are also pretty stingy with As.

Unless you've had a kid at GDS, NCS, etc, you can't say they're comparable. They're not. My kid is on a sports team with all MCPS kids who take the hardest classes, very high GPAs, etc, and they don't work even half as hard as their counterparts in top privates. Not saying they're not smart, but their high school experience is absolutely chill in comparison.

My kid went to Jackson Reed and is now at an Ivy. She took 6 APs junior year and almost had a breakdown because there was so much work. She was up until 2am every night. She also had multiple intensive activities that required a lot of time. I’m not saying that JR is as good as GDS but there are some dynamite kids there and I’m sure MCPS is the same. JR still does rankings and my daughter was not even top 5. Every school, public and private, has some amazing kids. And they are all competing for the same schools

Yes, my kids came out of DCPS and many of their friends are at JR and some are very impressive. However, being up well past midnight is par for the course for the baseline (not AP) course in even 9th and 10th grade at some of these Big3 schools. Then 6 APs would be impossible. My kids' schools give 1.5 hours a night per AP course. That ends would be 9 hours of homework nightly if a kid took 6 APs.

I think what the frustration is, is that the Big private school kids are doing the equivalent of your daughter's JR course load every year for 4 years, getting a mixture of As and Bs (because many teachers simply don't give As) and then have no chance in hell of the Ivies or (as of 2023) any school in the top 40.

If I had to do this again, I may not have moved them and we would have stuck with JR. Their high school years have trained them to be phenomenal students but their options for college have really narrowed by our choice to move them from DCPS to private.

This isn't true, at least for 9th and 10th--I know kids at Sidwell and NCS. To the extent it's true for the rare kid out there, after factoring in ECs, it's child abuse. And you paid $50k a year for it.

Your point about APs isn't clear. APs are a form of credentialing, where the public school kids are proving they learned the material inside and out. Kids at a Big 3 don't need that credentialing, which is why we all know that college admissions counselors don't expect as many AP classes from private school kids as from public school kids. Equally, you need to stop complaining that public school kids who took 12 APs didn't learn anything.

My kids in MCPS had teachers that wouldn't give A's either. For example, in AP Calc II. And the colleges' regional reps understand this and have already factored it in. So no using continuing to complain about it.

Also, to the RMIB booster: few kids at RMIB are gunning for MIT, instead they want ivies, and anyway RMIB with the international baccalaureate isn't a fertile ground for MIT to recruit in.

Bottom line: colleges are no longer simply accepting kids with "solid grades" and "solid ECs" and top test scores because you could afford to prep them up the wazoo. Your kid needs top grades (unweighted GPA, and factoring in what the admissions reps know about your school's grading policies) and to knock the ECs out of the ballpark with state and preferably national recognition (like my kid did, coming from public).
- A dozen APs aren't a boost except as credentialing, as pointed out above (and the weighting for APs doesn't change anything because most top colleges take your kid's transcript apart and run it through their own weighting schemes).
- Legacy is no longer a hook at most colleges unless your legacy kid with "solid ECs" comes with a huge donation.
- Being able to pay for intensive test prep from junior year (we know one private school family who did this from HS freshman year) is no longer a boost in a test-optional environment.

How hypocritical if the goal is equity. Do you have any idea how expensive ECs are to participate in? How most kids have zero access to scientific research or whatever? Test scores are the most equitable thing out there. Poor kids are working at Burger King after school as their EC.

No, test scores reflect expensive and tailored tutoring (we've been there), and poor kids are stuck with the generic once-a-week-for-one-month tutoring their HS offers. But you know this....

Colleges love kids that worked after school instead of flying their horse around the country. If you put work in your application, combined with great grades and recs, it's like admissions gold. But you know this....

Lots of public schools have practically free athletic options, even crew at several MCPS schools. DC's ivy had lots of football and baseball recruits. Not everything has to be about fencing (we've also been there). But you know this....

Oh yeah colleges are falling all over themselves for the kids with good grades who went to rough schools and worked at BK after school.

This is a fantasy to make yourself feel better.

This is how the world works these days. You added the part about "rough schools" and those kids do face extra hurdles. But yes, U Penn will take a Montgomery Blair kid who worked 4-6 hrs/day to support their family and save for college over your pampered kid with "solid ECs" in a heartbeat.

No they won’t, because that Montgomery Blair kid will not have the grades/classes to even get a second look. The myth that poor/first-gen kids waltz into top colleges because of URM preferences is just that- a myth. The very few extraordinary kids who work substantial PT jobs and take APs and get great grades? Sure. But it is extremely hard to do that. “Poor” kids are not just like your kid except poor.

Stop using Montgomery Blair as an example...their magnet kids do exceptionally well getting accepted into top schools. There is a site called Polarislist that tracks college acceptances to Harvard, Princeton and MIT (don't know why they only track those three). From 2018 - 2020, Blair had 25 kids accepted to these schools...Sidwell 9...STA 13...NCS 12.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

While that's available, it's not what's happening in most MCPS classes. Give me a break. Even if it happened extensively, is improvement such a bad thing, especially if we're measuring over a semester?

You mean is grade inflation so bad?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

DP. You just don't want to accept the truth, do you? College admissions reps understand all about grading at different schools and they factor this into their decisions. Most top colleges even have their own, proprietary weighting systems, where they take your kid's transcript apart and reweight everything according to what they value. How many times does this need to be repeated?

I'm sorry your kid didn't get into their first choice. But you spending hours here blaming everybody else is a bad look.

No they aren’t weighing the schools properly and factoring this into their decisions. This is what 1/2 the people on this thread have been saying. And my kid isn’t apply to school yet.

A few bitter private school parents (maybe even just one prolific private school parent) have been claiming this. They're ignorant.

Colleges--ivies and many state schools--DO reweight a kid's transcript. Fact.

Many colleges, from ivies to UMD and UVA, know all about the rigor at different schools in the DMV, and they DO take this into consideration. Fact.

LOL at "they're not weighting the schools properly." It may be true that UMD sees its mission as helping lower- and middle-income kids and isn't impressed by a Sidwell diploma, I don't know.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

Right. But doing well on the AP test will factor into that initial winnowing.

[Anonymous]

This is what I think too. The state schools may even be using AI for the first cut, then looking at things a bit more in detail.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This thread seems to be primarily about GDS. Is Sidwell similar or STA/NCS?

Also, how does GDS address the needs of families who are seeking need based and merit aid? Do they allow those families to apply more broadly? DC is on considerable FA at another school and I would not be ok if DC had to limit options for matching with a school with adequate funding because of arbitrary school rules.

The NCS process is much more transparent and you have access to more data. That does not mean everyone at NCS is thrilled with their outcomes or with the process, but having been through it at both schools, we found the NCS approach less stressful. There are very few scenarios where having less information is better than having more information.

You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS.
Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin.
Not throwing shade at these schools. They are excellent but lots of kids who had a more chill HS experience also end up at the same place. How is the stress and crazy amount of work at top high schools like GDS and NCS worth it?

Bates parent here from a highly regarded DMV public school. Your mindset is 1990s. The median GPA for my kid's HS for Bates was 4.6w. Wisconsin is a similarly tough admit nowadays. None of the kids who go to these schools from the DC area had a "chill HS experience." Sorry that your kid has to slum with mine, we're very glad that we chose not to put our kids in overpriced mediocre privates only to end up in the exact same place as hardworking public school kids. Hope your kid didn't inherit your sense of entitlement.

Is your highly regarded public school in MoCo? because if it is, everyone is aware now of the unlimited retakes, the C + B = A as the final grade, and equity-driven GPA outcomes. I'm not saying your kid isn't deserving. I am saying that any moderately intelligent kid attending at MoCo HS will emerge with a 4.2w or better just by breathing.

This is not the case at GDS, NCS, STA and especially Sidwell, where two English teachers will not give As. To anyone.

I don’t understand why you are being rude. C +B = B in MCPS. It does not equal an A. I agree that there is grade inflation in MCPS but the kids work hard. If you have a problem with the English teachers at Sidwell, you should try to address it at your school rather than trying to feel better by insulting MCPS. Some of the MCPS teachers are also pretty stingy with As.

Unless you've had a kid at GDS, NCS, etc, you can't say they're comparable. They're not. My kid is on a sports team with all MCPS kids who take the hardest classes, very high GPAs, etc, and they don't work even half as hard as their counterparts in top privates. Not saying they're not smart, but their high school experience is absolutely chill in comparison.

My kid went to Jackson Reed and is now at an Ivy. She took 6 APs junior year and almost had a breakdown because there was so much work. She was up until 2am every night. She also had multiple intensive activities that required a lot of time. I’m not saying that JR is as good as GDS but there are some dynamite kids there and I’m sure MCPS is the same. JR still does rankings and my daughter was not even top 5. Every school, public and private, has some amazing kids. And they are all competing for the same schools

Yes, my kids came out of DCPS and many of their friends are at JR and some are very impressive. However, being up well past midnight is par for the course for the baseline (not AP) course in even 9th and 10th grade at some of these Big3 schools. Then 6 APs would be impossible. My kids' schools give 1.5 hours a night per AP course. That ends would be 9 hours of homework nightly if a kid took 6 APs.

I think what the frustration is, is that the Big private school kids are doing the equivalent of your daughter's JR course load every year for 4 years, getting a mixture of As and Bs (because many teachers simply don't give As) and then have no chance in hell of the Ivies or (as of 2023) any school in the top 40.

If I had to do this again, I may not have moved them and we would have stuck with JR. Their high school years have trained them to be phenomenal students but their options for college have really narrowed by our choice to move them from DCPS to private.

This isn't true, at least for 9th and 10th--I know kids at Sidwell and NCS. To the extent it's true for the rare kid out there, after factoring in ECs, it's child abuse. And you paid $50k a year for it.

Your point about APs isn't clear. APs are a form of credentialing, where the public school kids are proving they learned the material inside and out. Kids at a Big 3 don't need that credentialing, which is why we all know that college admissions counselors don't expect as many AP classes from private school kids as from public school kids. Equally, you need to stop complaining that public school kids who took 12 APs didn't learn anything.

My kids in MCPS had teachers that wouldn't give A's either. For example, in AP Calc II. And the colleges' regional reps understand this and have already factored it in. So no using continuing to complain about it.

Also, to the RMIB booster: few kids at RMIB are gunning for MIT, instead they want ivies, and anyway RMIB with the international baccalaureate isn't a fertile ground for MIT to recruit in.

Bottom line: colleges are no longer simply accepting kids with "solid grades" and "solid ECs" and top test scores because you could afford to prep them up the wazoo. Your kid needs top grades (unweighted GPA, and factoring in what the admissions reps know about your school's grading policies) and to knock the ECs out of the ballpark with state and preferably national recognition (like my kid did, coming from public).
- A dozen APs aren't a boost except as credentialing, as pointed out above (and the weighting for APs doesn't change anything because most top colleges take your kid's transcript apart and run it through their own weighting schemes).
- Legacy is no longer a hook at most colleges unless your legacy kid with "solid ECs" comes with a huge donation.
- Being able to pay for intensive test prep from junior year (we know one private school family who did this from HS freshman year) is no longer a boost in a test-optional environment.

How hypocritical if the goal is equity. Do you have any idea how expensive ECs are to participate in? How most kids have zero access to scientific research or whatever? Test scores are the most equitable thing out there. Poor kids are working at Burger King after school as their EC.

No, test scores reflect expensive and tailored tutoring (we've been there), and poor kids are stuck with the generic once-a-week-for-one-month tutoring their HS offers. But you know this....

Colleges love kids that worked after school instead of flying their horse around the country. If you put work in your application, combined with great grades and recs, it's like admissions gold. But you know this....

Lots of public schools have practically free athletic options, even crew at several MCPS schools. DC's ivy had lots of football and baseball recruits. Not everything has to be about fencing (we've also been there). But you know this....

Oh yeah colleges are falling all over themselves for the kids with good grades who went to rough schools and worked at BK after school.

This is a fantasy to make yourself feel better.

This is how the world works these days. You added the part about "rough schools" and those kids do face extra hurdles. But yes, U Penn will take a Montgomery Blair kid who worked 4-6 hrs/day to support their family and save for college over your pampered kid with "solid ECs" in a heartbeat.

No they won’t, because that Montgomery Blair kid will not have the grades/classes to even get a second look. The myth that poor/first-gen kids waltz into top colleges because of URM preferences is just that- a myth. The very few extraordinary kids who work substantial PT jobs and take APs and get great grades? Sure. But it is extremely hard to do that. “Poor” kids are not just like your kid except poor.

Stop using Montgomery Blair as an example...their magnet kids do exceptionally well getting accepted into top schools. There is a site called Polarislist that tracks college acceptances to Harvard, Princeton and MIT (don't know why they only track those three). From 2018 - 2020, Blair had 25 kids accepted to these schools...Sidwell 9...STA 13...NCS 12.

Some of the Blair acceptances were from the CAP program, too. But yes, the magnet is awesome.

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Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

NP - not sure this is true. I think the initial winnowing is just GPA.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

Right. But doing well on the AP test will factor into that initial winnowing.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

If this is true (and I'm not 100% convinced), then you need to bring it up with your private school admin. They'd need to develop a credible way to weight some classes higher. That is, weigh the advanced math classes higher, don't just say "we're Sidwell."

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

While that's available, it's not what's happening in most MCPS classes. Give me a break. Even if it happened extensively, is improvement such a bad thing, especially if we're measuring over a semester?

You mean is grade inflation so bad?

No, the kids who want to go to top schools or get merit aid at UMD do well in both quarters.

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

While that's available, it's not what's happening in most MCPS classes. Give me a break. Even if it happened extensively, is improvement such a bad thing, especially if we're measuring over a semester?

You mean is grade inflation so bad?

No, the kids who want to go to top schools or get merit aid at UMD do well in both quarters.

PS. Otherwise they don't get good teacher recs, also it's like playing Russian roulette that you'll actually do well on 2nd quarter tests. Repeat the

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Anonymous wrote:We’re moving from September to June to to our summer house in the Midwest from 2023-2027 for our current 8th grader’s college admissions prospects.

Who has a Midwest summer house?

Lake house in MI or IL, country estate in Kansas etc.

?? and where will kid go to school? my close friend moved to a MI vacation property in around 8th grade and the schools were awful. She ended up in private anyway. not sure that this will result in any college admissions boost. how utterly weird and sad. I mean, move to the lake if you want.

The local public high school. It’s not stellar but not dangerous or anything. It is for the admissions boost. Our kid will not be dependent at all on the school for resources or enrichment; we have a war chest ready to deploy for ECs, tutoring and travel. Re: second bolded, that’s the point. Our child will stand out easily. If they were to go to college next year they’d probably excel. They have had an excellent foundational education already.

Just FYI, Admissions officers see through the parental curation.

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Anonymous wrote:We’re moving from September to June to to our summer house in the Midwest from 2023-2027 for our current 8th grader’s college admissions prospects.

Who has a Midwest summer house?

Lake house in MI or IL, country estate in Kansas etc.

?? and where will kid go to school? my close friend moved to a MI vacation property in around 8th grade and the schools were awful. She ended up in private anyway. not sure that this will result in any college admissions boost. how utterly weird and sad. I mean, move to the lake if you want.

The local public high school. It’s not stellar but not dangerous or anything. It is for the admissions boost. Our kid will not be dependent at all on the school for resources or enrichment; we have a war chest ready to deploy for ECs, tutoring and travel. Re: second bolded, that’s the point. Our child will stand out easily. If they were to go to college next year they’d probably excel. They have had an excellent foundational education already.

Just FYI, Admissions officers see through the parental curation.

DP. If the kid truly excels in ECs, admissions officers won't care how they got there. Do you think they care about the parental time and $$$ behind fencing and swimming? They won't see the tutoring. They don't care about travel (unless your kid became bilingual or something during a year-long stay) and certainly don't write the essay about it.