Aging parents who refuse to move

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept that this is what they want and dying unnecessarily or in an unpleasant way is their choice. And treating their family badly is also a choice and they are choosing it. Stop fighting them, it's not worth it. I've had to accept this with my dad, and if at some point he loses the ability to know where he is anyway, I will move him.

Had a similar situation with my mother.
At least she was indeed independent and didn’t linger

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

You don't get it. To qualify, the seniors in question are REQUIRED to spend down their assets. So the first few years they're paying, and then when they can't pay, they're allowed to stay thanks to Medicaid.

Unless you come up with a sneaky plan YEARS IN ADVANCE - because the nursing homes check prior assets several years back! - you cannot transfer wealth to relatives to avoid spending down assets.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. And you clearly didn't read some of the PPs' solutions. "Protect the parents' assets so they will qualify for a Medicaid nursing home." Yes, they must be "guessing" when their parents will die, taking away their parents' assets at least 5 years in advance. (And none of us have a crystal ball.) And they do this so they will get the money and the parent will die in a terrible nursing home.

If, as you say, the parent maintains their assets, they frequently (but not always) can find a better skilled nursing facility that will spend down the person's assets and THEN accept Medicaid. Many times, these better facilities will make their decision based on how much they potentially will make before having to accept Medicaid.

These are two different routes. One is honest and has greater potential to be better, while the other is elder abuse, IMO, at the very least.

Dp. Why not trust each other and do the following:
-parent transfers the assets
-when the time comes, child puts parent in a decent facility paying out of those assets for a bit and then the parent stays using Medicaid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

You don't get it. To qualify, the seniors in question are REQUIRED to spend down their assets. So the first few years they're paying, and then when they can't pay, they're allowed to stay thanks to Medicaid.

Unless you come up with a sneaky plan YEARS IN ADVANCE - because the nursing homes check prior assets several years back! - you cannot transfer wealth to relatives to avoid spending down assets.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. And you clearly didn't read some of the PPs' solutions. "Protect the parents' assets so they will qualify for a Medicaid nursing home." Yes, they must be "guessing" when their parents will die, taking away their parents' assets at least 5 years in advance. (And none of us have a crystal ball.) And they do this so they will get the money and the parent will die in a terrible nursing home.

If, as you say, the parent maintains their assets, they frequently (but not always) can find a better skilled nursing facility that will spend down the person's assets and THEN accept Medicaid. Many times, these better facilities will make their decision based on how much they potentially will make before having to accept Medicaid.

These are two different routes. One is honest and has greater potential to be better, while the other is elder abuse, IMO, at the very least.

Dp. Why not trust each other and do the following:
-parent transfers the assets
-when the time comes, child puts parent in a decent facility paying out of those assets for a bit and then the parent stays using Medicaid?[b]

Because it doesn't work that way. If you now have the assets, then they are your assets and you are agreeing to pay for parent in the skilled nursing facility. Then you will be on the hook until the parent dies. You can't say, I'll pay X amount of "my money" then stop. Many states have laws on the books that already require offspring to pay. But rarely, if ever, do states enforce this. But it's one of the reasons why you should never be a cosigner for a parent at any level of care facility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Parents in the past generally didn't live as long as the elderly live now. So in US culture, we are only now on a larger scale, being forced to deal with the care of elderly who have little if any assets to pay for LTC. My parents never gave it a thought because their parents all died in their late 60s, while my parents are both in their 90s, having made no plans whatsoever for elder care. It never occurred to them they'd still be alive at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

You don't get it. To qualify, the seniors in question are REQUIRED to spend down their assets. So the first few years they're paying, and then when they can't pay, they're allowed to stay thanks to Medicaid.

Unless you come up with a sneaky plan YEARS IN ADVANCE - because the nursing homes check prior assets several years back! - you cannot transfer wealth to relatives to avoid spending down assets.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. And you clearly didn't read some of the PPs' solutions. "Protect the parents' assets so they will qualify for a Medicaid nursing home." Yes, they must be "guessing" when their parents will die, taking away their parents' assets at least 5 years in advance. (And none of us have a crystal ball.) And they do this so they will get the money and the parent will die in a terrible nursing home.

If, as you say, the parent maintains their assets, they frequently (but not always) can find a better skilled nursing facility that will spend down the person's assets and THEN accept Medicaid. Many times, these better facilities will make their decision based on how much they potentially will make before having to accept Medicaid.

These are two different routes. One is honest and has greater potential to be better, while the other is elder abuse, IMO, at the very least.

Dp. Why not trust each other and do the following:
-parent transfers the assets
-when the time comes, child puts parent in a decent facility paying out of those assets for a bit and then the parent stays using Medicaid?[b]

Because it doesn't work that way. If you now have the assets, then they are your assets and you are agreeing to pay for parent in the skilled nursing facility. Then you will be on the hook until the parent dies. You can't say, I'll pay X amount of "my money" then stop. Many states have laws on the books that already require offspring to pay. But rarely, if ever, do states enforce this. But it's one of the reasons why you should never be a cosigner for a parent at any level of care facility.

Point taken. Thank you for this, I didn’t know.
It’s not even my situation as my remaining parent has no money, but I am very interested in how to not get ripped off by the eldercare industry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Parents in the past generally didn't live as long as the elderly live now. So in US culture, we are only now on a larger scale, being forced to deal with the care of elderly who have little if any assets to pay for LTC. My parents never gave it a thought because their parents all died in their late 60s, while my parents are both in their 90s, having made no plans whatsoever for elder care. It never occurred to them they'd still be alive at this point.

I was not talking about “no assets to pay for LTC”, I am talking about “my kids get zilch because it’s all going towards keeping me alive for 20 years when no one wants it including me”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

My MIL had early onset dementia, so very young. I took care of her at our home as long as I could with no help but I couldn't do it anymore and our only option was a medicaid bed. Sometimes its the best of bad options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

My MIL had early onset dementia, so very young. I took care of her at our home as long as I could with no help but I couldn't do it anymore and our only option was a medicaid bed. Sometimes it's the best of bad options.

I'm the PP, and I agree with this entirely. I'm only addressing those kids who want to save the parent's assets for themselves vs using a parent's assets to pay for their care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Parents in the past generally didn't live as long as the elderly live now. So in US culture, we are only now on a larger scale, being forced to deal with the care of elderly who have little if any assets to pay for LTC. My parents never gave it a thought because their parents all died in their late 60s, while my parents are both in their 90s, having made no plans whatsoever for elder care. It never occurred to them they'd still be alive at this point.

I was not talking about “no assets to pay for LTC”, I am talking about “my kids get zilch because it’s all going towards keeping me alive for 20 years when no one wants it including me”.

The point of Medicaid isn't so your kids can get your assets. Medicaid is for those who have no assets and would be on the streets otherwise. Your assets are there to take care of you. How to you not understand this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept that this is what they want and dying unnecessarily or in an unpleasant way is their choice. And treating their family badly is also a choice and they are choosing it. Stop fighting them, it's not worth it. I've had to accept this with my dad, and if at some point he loses the ability to know where he is anyway, I will move him.

+1. It's horrible, but eventually I came to accept that my parents wanted to live as they always had, and any ideas and support were unwanted. At some point there will be a fall or other emergency, and they will go wherever my siblings and I can find placement, but at least they will have stayed in their home as long as possible. Which is what they really want. It's very hard to come to terms with and my siblings and I look like deadbeats to their neighbors and friends, but you can't make people do what they don't want to do. In my parents case they have always been stubborn, so at least I have the peace of mind of knowing this unreasonable behavior isn't dementia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Maybe for the middlel class and lower middle class, but most of my friends will inherit millions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Parents in the past generally didn't live as long as the elderly live now. So in US culture, we are only now on a larger scale, being forced to deal with the care of elderly who have little if any assets to pay for LTC. My parents never gave it a thought because their parents all died in their late 60s, while my parents are both in their 90s, having made no plans whatsoever for elder care. It never occurred to them they'd still be alive at this point.

I was not talking about “no assets to pay for LTC”, I am talking about “my kids get zilch because it’s all going towards keeping me alive for 20 years when no one wants it including me”.

Then why would you keep yourself alive? I do not understand the mentality of breathe at all costs. Have you been in a lower cost nursing home? It's awaful. I'd rather be dead. I do not ever want to be a burden on my kids.

[Anonymous]

Get one of those mobile stair chairs and put the house in a tax protected trust NOW

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept that this is what they want and dying unnecessarily or in an unpleasant way is their choice. And treating their family badly is also a choice and they are choosing it. Stop fighting them, it's not worth it. I've had to accept this with my dad, and if at some point he loses the ability to know where he is anyway, I will move him.

+1. It's horrible, but eventually I came to accept that my parents wanted to live as they always had, and any ideas and support were unwanted. At some point there will be a fall or other emergency, and they will go wherever my siblings and I can find placement, but at least they will have stayed in their home as long as possible. Which is what they really want. It's very hard to come to terms with and my siblings and I look like deadbeats to their neighbors and friends, but you can't make people do what they don't want to do. In my parents case they have always been stubborn, so at least I have the peace of mind of knowing this unreasonable behavior isn't dementia.

OP here. Yes, same here they have always been very stubborn so this is not new behavior. And my mother is very immature and has zero understanding of finances (and I mean zero. She doesn’t even know what a principal is).

This comment in particular gives me peace because yes, I guess you are right that their main goal is to stay there as long as possible. Rather than downsize now into something modest but comfortable maybe they would prefer more years in their large home followed by awful years in a low grade place because they did not plan or take steps to pay for something nicer.

The house is their main asset. The money they could make in its sale will be the main source of funds they have to pay for any sort of care in the future. If they choose not to sell and let it deteriorate, then I guess they will have to face the consequences if they are unhappy with what they can afford later.

I have shared properties that are lovely with the hope of inspiring them to reconsider and they refuse to even look. The last time I shared one with my mother, a nearly million dollar property, mind you, she turned it into criticism of my taste and said she would probably die of depression if she lived there.

I am absolutely taking this as a learning opportunity and will never put my children through this. This is part of why I asked the question about finances and what we are on the hook for. My husband and I have made saving and living frugally a priority so that we leave our children with something. I fear we will get roped into supporting my parents if they do not start to make better financial decisions such as selling the house and taking steps to downsize their lifestyle. This is all aside from my concerns over their physical safety in the current situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP why is your wanting them to move before they are 80 a "lack of planning?"

I can't imagine telling my 79yo mother to move. Or, even my 88yo MIL.

Maybe because they can’t take care of the house anymore? It has lots of stairs that aren’t safe? They can’t keep up with housework?

Hire help for them.

Sorry but why would I pay for someone to take care of the home I don’t want them in anyway? It costs way more to maintain a 5 br house and a large yard than a condo…

I’m not sure about that. Condo fees in this area are expensive. Why don’t you actually do the math.

Depends on the condo, and also you have to compare true apples-to-apples. If you select a basic condo without any fancy amenities, then you can find reasonable condo fees. Remember, those fees cover homeowners' insurance (you just need to insure your contents with renter's insurance), all exterior maintenance, trash (for areas where this is charged in addition to property tax), etc.

Obviously, the difference in this situation is it doesn't actually cost much to maintain a 5 BR house...if you decide you aren't going to maintain it. You pay for it in decreasing the market value of the house. There was a house in our neighborhood that was in horrible shape...gutters falling off, tree branches literally growing into the roof, cracks in the foundation. An elderly woman lived there alone and did zero maintenance. The house was sold to a developer for like $750k vs. a similar house in good shape that sold for like $1.75MM.

Lived in a condo and had a special assessment of $35K.

Also, funny how you want to put them in the cheapest condo with no amenities. I guess that works for you.

A well run condo doesn't hit you with a $35k special assessment, as it's already wrapped into the condo fees.

Not putting them in the "cheapest" condo, but if you aren't going to use the gym, the pool, the golf simulator, the rooftop deck, etc...well then why would you purchase a condo in such a building that is going to have a very high condo fee as a result?