Federal judge rules that admissions changes at nation’s top public school discriminate against Asian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ugly truth that everyone seems to be dancing around is that the South Asian population in NoVA strongly skews toward highly intelligent, highly motivated families who are in the area specifically to perform skilled STEM jobs. It's unsurprising that their kids are going to likewise be highly intelligent and STEM oriented, and thus be "overrepresented" at elite STEM schools. The Whites, AAs, Hispanics, and even East Asians in FCPS are much more representative of their races as a whole. The South Asians in FCPS/LCPS are not at all representative of all South Asians.

+1

Why do you use the word "ugly" truth - sounds pretty racist to me - like code words "toxic environment" used when there are too many Indians or South Asians etc...

There is nothing ugly about the USA benefitting from the top graduates of the best universities of the most populous countries of the world coming to our neighborhoods and contributing to the success of public sector IT or hospitals or local corporations. It is an incredible (and mostly free) benefit to the average citizen in America and that is why congress made the laws to encourage this. To do a bait and switch on their children and oppress their children is what is the ugly racism imposed on these people.

You misunderstand. I'm saying it's not reasonable to expect South Asians to be represented in a way corresponding to their share of the population. In any fair process that looks purely at the kids' merit, the South Asian kids ought to be "overrepresented," since only the elites are in the DC area.

And they still are, to an enormous extent - although not quite as enormous as previously. They will always be if for no other reason than their extraordinary interest in the subject matter.

The fact that they are slightly less represented than previously in an attempt to invite other communities into the fold is neither racist nor oppressive.

What a racist, ugly thing to say. Shame on you. Seriously.

.....how....so? Definitely going to need to expand on that one.

Serious? "There's way too many of them Asians, but it's for no other reason than they're all extraordinarily interested in gaming the admissions process." Would you tolerate an acquaintance saying this about any other race in your presence?

I said IF for no other reason than interest in the subject matter. That doesn't mean there IS no other reason. Reading comprehension is important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What strikes me, while reading through this thread, is that we are all fighting over a scare resource: a high quality high school for high achieving students. Why aren't other high schools able to offer a rigorous course load? I had wonderful opportunities in school and I'm disappointed that my kids don't have access to things like that. Where you live shouldn't mean you're stuck in basic classes throughout high school.

There ARE many high-end opportunities in high schools across Fairfax County - especially in affluent areas.

The overwhelming interest in TJ stems largely from its prestige, and many of the families who are fighting over that resource live in communities where the delta between opportunities at TJ and their base school is far smaller than the delta between those opportunities in the communities that they're trying to keep out.

Disagree. My school is a 3 and we don't have access to much of anything. The regular curriculum is incredibly watered down and is basically remedial instruction at this point. Instead of getting kids who are behind grade level up to grade level, they just keep trudging along. So many of the students are brand new immigrants who don't speak english and are thrown in. Where is the extra tutoring or ESOL classes? I'm increasingly frustrated. Nearly every single one of my neighbors has fled to private schools.

I can understand where you're coming from, but even a school with high ESOL population will still offer AP/IB to meet students with more advanced needs. And if your child isn't quite ready or interested in the higher workloads for the level of AP/IB, then they should still have Honors options available. Even if you think your child isn't interested or capable of excelling in Honors either, they should still take the Honors level because the teacher will meet them where they are without expecting AP-level work. In any case, they don't need to be in the lowest-level course which is catered towards ESOL and the lower levels of the curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ugly truth that everyone seems to be dancing around is that the South Asian population in NoVA strongly skews toward highly intelligent, highly motivated families who are in the area specifically to perform skilled STEM jobs. It's unsurprising that their kids are going to likewise be highly intelligent and STEM oriented, and thus be "overrepresented" at elite STEM schools. The Whites, AAs, Hispanics, and even East Asians in FCPS are much more representative of their races as a whole. The South Asians in FCPS/LCPS are not at all representative of all South Asians.

+1

Why do you use the word "ugly" truth - sounds pretty racist to me - like code words "toxic environment" used when there are too many Indians or South Asians etc...

There is nothing ugly about the USA benefitting from the top graduates of the best universities of the most populous countries of the world coming to our neighborhoods and contributing to the success of public sector IT or hospitals or local corporations. It is an incredible (and mostly free) benefit to the average citizen in America and that is why congress made the laws to encourage this. To do a bait and switch on their children and oppress their children is what is the ugly racism imposed on these people.

You misunderstand. I'm saying it's not reasonable to expect South Asians to be represented in a way corresponding to their share of the population. In any fair process that looks purely at the kids' merit, the South Asian kids ought to be "overrepresented," since only the elites are in the DC area.

And they still are, to an enormous extent - although not quite as enormous as previously. They will always be if for no other reason than their extraordinary interest in the subject matter.

The fact that they are slightly less represented than previously in an attempt to invite other communities into the fold is neither racist nor oppressive.

What a racist, ugly thing to say. Shame on you. Seriously.

.....how....so? Definitely going to need to expand on that one.

Serious? "There's way too many of them Asians, but it's for no other reason than they're all extraordinarily interested in gaming the admissions process." Would you tolerate an acquaintance saying this about any other race in your presence?

I said IF for no other reason than interest in the subject matter. That doesn't mean there IS no other reason. Reading comprehension is important.

You can rationalize your perspective however you want; mine is that plainly racist language should be called out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ugly truth that everyone seems to be dancing around is that the South Asian population in NoVA strongly skews toward highly intelligent, highly motivated families who are in the area specifically to perform skilled STEM jobs. It's unsurprising that their kids are going to likewise be highly intelligent and STEM oriented, and thus be "overrepresented" at elite STEM schools. The Whites, AAs, Hispanics, and even East Asians in FCPS are much more representative of their races as a whole. The South Asians in FCPS/LCPS are not at all representative of all South Asians.

+1

Why do you use the word "ugly" truth - sounds pretty racist to me - like code words "toxic environment" used when there are too many Indians or South Asians etc...

There is nothing ugly about the USA benefitting from the top graduates of the best universities of the most populous countries of the world coming to our neighborhoods and contributing to the success of public sector IT or hospitals or local corporations. It is an incredible (and mostly free) benefit to the average citizen in America and that is why congress made the laws to encourage this. To do a bait and switch on their children and oppress their children is what is the ugly racism imposed on these people.

You misunderstand. I'm saying it's not reasonable to expect South Asians to be represented in a way corresponding to their share of the population. In any fair process that looks purely at the kids' merit, the South Asian kids ought to be "overrepresented," since only the elites are in the DC area.

And they still are, to an enormous extent - although not quite as enormous as previously. They will always be if for no other reason than their extraordinary interest in the subject matter.

The fact that they are slightly less represented than previously in an attempt to invite other communities into the fold is neither racist nor oppressive.

What a racist, ugly thing to say. Shame on you. Seriously.

.....how....so? Definitely going to need to expand on that one.

Serious? "There's way too many of them Asians, but it's for no other reason than they're all extraordinarily interested in gaming the admissions process." Would you tolerate an acquaintance saying this about any other race in your presence?

I said IF for no other reason than interest in the subject matter. That doesn't mean there IS no other reason. Reading comprehension is important.

You can rationalize your perspective however you want; mine is that plainly racist language should be called out.

I'm not going to be held responsible for your poor reading comprehension. Do better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Should bright kids who don't have informed parents and who aren't precocious enough to navigate TJ admissions when they are in elementary school be penalized because they haven't "proactively proven their merit" as much as other kids?

No. But you have to be more than bright to succeed at TJ. If your kid can't handle the workload, better to stay at the base HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should bright kids who don't have informed parents and who aren't precocious enough to navigate TJ admissions when they are in elementary school be penalized because they haven't "proactively proven their merit" as much as other kids?

No. But you have to be more than bright to succeed at TJ. If your kid can't handle the workload, better to stay at the base HS.

Can we please get to the elephant in the room? White people could immigrate here 100 years ago illiterate, with an elementary school education, as a laborer or factory worker. Ask an immigration lawyer or some Asians if it's easy for poor illiterate Asians to come on over to live permanently like illiterate white people did 100+ years ago. I'm so so over people operating on the assumption that Asian immigrants and their kids aren't special. They are. I'm not Asian btw. But if people have problem with that, then we should change our immigration laws to make it easier, not make TJ easier. TJ is resultant of U.S. laws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You're right, but frequently the students who have the most success in these competitions are those whose families have paid for extra help or prep work in these areas. It always comes back to parents using their resources to boost their kids - and there's nothing wrong with them doing that; they just need to do it without the expectation that it's going to get them into elite schools, because if those resources confer a huge advantage on to a student, you have a classist process.

AOPS has a free, very active forum and a ton of free resources for any motivated kids. Even if a kid is economically disadvantaged, at some point the kid needs to proactively do something to prove merit, much like the slew of economically disadvantaged Asian kids who still have the chops to get accepted into Stuyvesant each year.

How exactly would 5th graders from ED families know about AOPS?

You mean ED Asian kids? They search and surf the internet and find all kinds of free resources on-line not just AOPS. However, you have to be interested in math and science and show some initiative. My kid found Khan Academy when it was not well known.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ugly truth that everyone seems to be dancing around is that the South Asian population in NoVA strongly skews toward highly intelligent, highly motivated families who are in the area specifically to perform skilled STEM jobs. It's unsurprising that their kids are going to likewise be highly intelligent and STEM oriented, and thus be "overrepresented" at elite STEM schools. The Whites, AAs, Hispanics, and even East Asians in FCPS are much more representative of their races as a whole. The South Asians in FCPS/LCPS are not at all representative of all South Asians.

+1

Why do you use the word "ugly" truth - sounds pretty racist to me - like code words "toxic environment" used when there are too many Indians or South Asians etc...

There is nothing ugly about the USA benefitting from the top graduates of the best universities of the most populous countries of the world coming to our neighborhoods and contributing to the success of public sector IT or hospitals or local corporations. It is an incredible (and mostly free) benefit to the average citizen in America and that is why congress made the laws to encourage this. To do a bait and switch on their children and oppress their children is what is the ugly racism imposed on these people.

You misunderstand. I'm saying it's not reasonable to expect South Asians to be represented in a way corresponding to their share of the population. In any fair process that looks purely at the kids' merit, the South Asian kids ought to be "overrepresented," since only the elites are in the DC area.

And they still are, to an enormous extent - although not quite as enormous as previously. They will always be if for no other reason than their extraordinary interest in the subject matter.

The fact that they are slightly less represented than previously in an attempt to invite other communities into the fold is neither racist nor oppressive.

What a racist, ugly thing to say. Shame on you. Seriously.

.....how....so? Definitely going to need to expand on that one.

Serious? "There's way too many of them Asians, but it's for no other reason than they're all extraordinarily interested in gaming the admissions process." Would you tolerate an acquaintance saying this about any other race in your presence?

I said IF for no other reason than interest in the subject matter. That doesn't mean there IS no other reason. Reading comprehension is important.

You can rationalize your perspective however you want; mine is that plainly racist language should be called out.

I'm not going to be held responsible for your poor reading comprehension. Do better.

I understood you just fine, don't worry about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You're right, but frequently the students who have the most success in these competitions are those whose families have paid for extra help or prep work in these areas. It always comes back to parents using their resources to boost their kids - and there's nothing wrong with them doing that; they just need to do it without the expectation that it's going to get them into elite schools, because if those resources confer a huge advantage on to a student, you have a classist process.

AOPS has a free, very active forum and a ton of free resources for any motivated kids. Even if a kid is economically disadvantaged, at some point the kid needs to proactively do something to prove merit, much like the slew of economically disadvantaged Asian kids who still have the chops to get accepted into Stuyvesant each year.

How exactly would 5th graders from ED families know about AOPS?

You mean ED Asian kids? They search and surf the internet and find all kinds of free resources on-line not just AOPS. However, you have to be interested in math and science and show some initiative. My kid found Khan Academy when it was not well known.

And overwhelmingly, under the previous admissions process, they were blocked out by affluent Asian students who could afford boutique prep courses that are demonstrably more effective.

There are far more exceptional ED Asian students under this new process than under the old one. And the lawsuit threatens their ability to access TJ, no matter how much effort they put into free services. Because if the free services were as good, the affluent families would save money and use those instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just did a google search for "free math".
Khan academy was one of the first sites listed. It's honestly not that complicated.

How many fifth graders know to do that?

All of them? They start making Google slideshows in like 3rd grade in FCPS. They all learn how to search the internet for resources based on their projects. They also all learn how to search for any areas of interest for the more open ended projects. This was the case for both my kid in AAP and my kid in Gen ed at a Title I school. Also, the Title I school had 1-1 laptops starting in 3rd grade.

How do they know to search for AoPS? or "free math"?

How many know about TJ and the admissions process?

How many know they need algebra in 8th to apply?

How do they know that they have to start in elementary school to "proactively do something to prove merit"?

Adding on to this....

If the free options that are available were nearly as effective as the extremely expensive boutique prep options that are available - and that have demonstrably contributed huge and growing numbers of students to the TJ population - then you would see affluent families choosing to use the free resources on their own instead of the boutique options.

Said differently, if the free options were as effective, Curie would be out of business. They're not, which tells you that resources matter in the TJ admissions process.

Some might do both - free and not free.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just did a google search for "free math".
Khan academy was one of the first sites listed. It's honestly not that complicated.

How many fifth graders know to do that?

All of them? They start making Google slideshows in like 3rd grade in FCPS. They all learn how to search the internet for resources based on their projects. They also all learn how to search for any areas of interest for the more open ended projects. This was the case for both my kid in AAP and my kid in Gen ed at a Title I school. Also, the Title I school had 1-1 laptops starting in 3rd grade.

How do they know to search for AoPS? or "free math"?

How many know about TJ and the admissions process?

How many know they need algebra in 8th to apply?

How do they know that they have to start in elementary school to "proactively do something to prove merit"?

Adding on to this....

If the free options that are available were nearly as effective as the extremely expensive boutique prep options that are available - and that have demonstrably contributed huge and growing numbers of students to the TJ population - then you would see affluent families choosing to use the free resources on their own instead of the boutique options.

Said differently, if the free options were as effective, Curie would be out of business. They're not, which tells you that resources matter in the TJ admissions process.

Some might do both - free and not free.

Oh, no doubt. But if the free option is adequate to be competitive, the paid option will eventually starve. It hasn't, and claims huge portions of incoming TJ classes every year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As an Asian-American, I find the whole idea of "over-representation" while we are part of 4% or 6% of the US population to be incredibly fascist or communist or oppressive. So my kid can't be an engineer or doctor or lawyer or accountant if any of my " Asian race" (a completely made-up idiotic way to encompass 2/3 of the world's population and may skin colors and many cultures and countries) limits my kids to be no more than 6% of any profession?

It is incredibly racist and completely oppressive. I don't care how many social justice warriors or black African Americans or White people think this is ok reasoning, for Asian-Americans the "representative of demographics" heuristic for distributing space in society is incredibly oppressive. We will never agree with this. Especially since, the immigration pathways into America for most Asians involve selecting the best and brightest from those lands and then expected that they should regress to the mean and just have their childrens' futures limited by their micro-minority status. No way will we fall for that.

It's racist at its core. That's what the racist majority uses to bully the minority. If FCPS had said its goal was to balance TJ to make it look more like the county's demographics, it would suffer the same outcome in court as being racist. Notice the racist majority never proposes to racially balance in areas they benefit and dominate such as CEO seats, millionaire class, high power politicians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just did a google search for "free math".
Khan academy was one of the first sites listed. It's honestly not that complicated.

How many fifth graders know to do that?

All of them? They start making Google slideshows in like 3rd grade in FCPS. They all learn how to search the internet for resources based on their projects. They also all learn how to search for any areas of interest for the more open ended projects. This was the case for both my kid in AAP and my kid in Gen ed at a Title I school. Also, the Title I school had 1-1 laptops starting in 3rd grade.

How do they know to search for AoPS? or "free math"?

How many know about TJ and the admissions process?

How many know they need algebra in 8th to apply?

How do they know that they have to start in elementary school to "proactively do something to prove merit"?

Adding on to this....

If the free options that are available were nearly as effective as the extremely expensive boutique prep options that are available - and that have demonstrably contributed huge and growing numbers of students to the TJ population - then you would see affluent families choosing to use the free resources on their own instead of the boutique options.

Said differently, if the free options were as effective, Curie would be out of business. They're not, which tells you that resources matter in the TJ admissions process.

Some might do both - free and not free.

Oh, no doubt. But if the free option is adequate to be competitive, the paid option will eventually starve. It hasn't, and claims huge portions of incoming TJ classes every year.

It’s a free country yo - as long as it’s legal.

[Anonymous]

“ And they still are, to an enormous extent - although not quite as enormous as previously. They will always be if for no other reason than their extraordinary interest in the subject matter.

The fact that they are slightly less represented than previously in an attempt to invite other communities into the fold is neither racist nor oppressive.”

+1
Even with the new system Asian representation is almost triple their level in FCPS. and that is the system that is being complained about! The prior one seemed to yield slightly less than quadruple levels. Sorry that just does not scream “everything fine here! Nothing to see!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“ And they still are, to an enormous extent - although not quite as enormous as previously. They will always be if for no other reason than their extraordinary interest in the subject matter.

The fact that they are slightly less represented than previously in an attempt to invite other communities into the fold is neither racist nor oppressive.”

+1
Even with the new system Asian representation is almost triple their level in FCPS. and that is the system that is being complained about! The prior one seemed to yield slightly less than quadruple levels. Sorry that just does not scream “everything fine here! Nothing to see!”

Asians have high percentage because of hoe difficult WHITE people made it for them to get visas and citizenship here.

Blacks might be underrepresented because of slavery, segregation, white gatekeepers, other racism - by WHITE people.

A lot of hispanic kids are from homes in which WHITE people laws prohibit them from even getting a SSN to work a job.

So why did white people INCREASE their representation? In the logic of equity, whites should have just given up all their representation.

See how that works?