DDOT's latest plan to destroy traffic, Georgia Avenue edition

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

DRIVERS will "dart"? Huh. Sounds dangerous. Someone really ought to do something about those drivers.

If you sincerely thought this was about the safety of children, you would support changes to Georgia AND changes to "the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live)". But you don't. Instead, you actually oppose both of those things. Because it's actually not about safety at all, for you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Ward 4 has the highest concentration of children under the age of 10 in the city. Some of them will inevitably be killed as a direct result of this DDOT proposal. We all know it will send tens of thousands of cars through side streets of Ward 4 to avoid the gridlock on Georgia that this plan will create.

There's basically no children on Georgia Avenue (Georgia Avenue is mostly liquor stores and other businesses), but go a few blocks east or west and there's a million of them. A lot of young children.

It's hard to imagine how this plan would *not* result in many children being killed. I would think someone will sue to stop this truly insane idea.

The status quo has already resulted in at least one actual - not hypothetical - child being actually - not hypothetically - killed.

On a different street. After 16th Street was redesigned.

The child was killed at the intersection of Kennedy and Georgia. The family was crossing Kennedy at Georgia - just like you would do if you were walking along Georgia and needed to get to the other side of Kennedy. And yet you keep insisting that the intersection of Kennedy and Georgia has nothing to do with Georgia.

they crossed from one side of Kennedy to the other side of Kennedy. Breaking the law in the process, it's probably worth noting.

https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/bike_ped_traffic_reg_summary_0_0.pdf

"If a pedestrian crosses a roadway AT ANY POINT OTHER THAN A MARKED CROSSWALK, or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, THE PEDESTRIAN SHALL YEILD THE RIGHT OF WAY TO ANY VEHICLE."

At Georgia.

Is it open season on four-year-old children who break traffic laws, now? Are you the one expressing concern about the safety of children on "side streets"?

Not PP but what are you talking about re: “open season on 4 year olds”. The point is that crossing a road can be dangerous. That is true especially when Jay walking. It is parents’ responsibility to look out for 4 year olds and not let them run into the street.

You know, it's interesting, because I would say it's drivers' responsibility to look out for 4 year olds and not hit them, and I would also say it's DDOT's responsibility to make crossing a road safe.

A person might infer from your post that you actually are not concerned about the safety of children, after all.

The primary person charged with ensuring the safety of the deceased boy did not do that, for whatever reason. No one is blaming a four year old He however was accompanied by an adult who had an absolute duty to keep him from harm.

Can you be sure that the child would still be alive if he had crossed the street on a crosswalk? I can’t. People are killed in DC every year while crossing with a cross signal on a crosswalk. The most recent person to suffer this fate, I believe, was Patricia Bullinger. She died after being struck by a vehicle while crossing Foxhall Road.

Can be sure the child would be alive if they were in an air balloon instead? In the world of hypotheticals anything can be true.

You want us to follow your philosphy and preferences and editcs, and think like you, but we don't have to. No matter if you have a response to every post that is against your opinion. Volume of words doesn't have the power of mind control.

You are maintaining that the child died because his feet were not touching white paint as if that is what is getting pedestrians killed on DC streets. I am telling you, with reference to specific cases, that this not what is getting pedestrians killed on DC streets. Please don’t try to tell us again how concerned you are about the safety of all the children who live along the side streets or anyone’s safety for that matter.

He jaywalked and his guardian was not holding his hand / he moved in a separate direction from the adult.

Another person blaming a four-year-old for getting killed by a car.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

DRIVERS will "dart"? Huh. Sounds dangerous. Someone really ought to do something about those drivers.

If you sincerely thought this was about the safety of children, you would support changes to Georgia AND changes to "the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live)". But you don't. Instead, you actually oppose both of those things. Because it's actually not about safety at all, for you.

See No. 6:

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

More like 20-30 thousand.

That's the constant count for the entire stretch. If it's individualized to take into account turn on and turn offs then it is much higher.

I got this range by looking at block by block data some of which were 17K and some like 25K. So if the individualized is much higher than the constant then the constant is going to be lower than the numbers I found.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

More like 20-30 thousand.

That's the constant count for the entire stretch. If it's individualized to take into account turn on and turn offs then it is much higher.

I got this range by looking at block by block data some of which were 17K and some like 25K. So if the individualized is much higher than the constant then the constant is going to be lower than the numbers I found.

The constant would be the average of each block by block count. Although if you want to be super accurate then you would have to adjust for potential size differences among the blocks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

DRIVERS will "dart"? Huh. Sounds dangerous. Someone really ought to do something about those drivers.

If you sincerely thought this was about the safety of children, you would support changes to Georgia AND changes to "the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live)". But you don't. Instead, you actually oppose both of those things. Because it's actually not about safety at all, for you.

See No. 6:

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

You: Drivers will kill children on the streets of Ward 4!!!!!!!!!!!!
People who are opposed to drivers killing children: Ok, then DDOT needs to do things to make those streets safe.
You: Unpossible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

More like 20-30 thousand.

That's the constant count for the entire stretch. If it's individualized to take into account turn on and turn offs then it is much higher.

I got this range by looking at block by block data some of which were 17K and some like 25K. So if the individualized is much higher than the constant then the constant is going to be lower than the numbers I found.

The constant would be the average of each block by block count. Although if you want to be super accurate then you would have to adjust for potential size differences among the blocks.

Why would size difference among the blocks matter? If you do any adjustment its for vehicle mix. If it was all buses then the "hundreds of thousands" nonsense would be in the ballpark.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ward 4 has the highest concentration of children under the age of 10 in the city. Some of them will inevitably be killed as a direct result of this DDOT proposal. We all know it will send tens of thousands of cars through side streets of Ward 4 to avoid the gridlock on Georgia that this plan will create.

There's basically no children on Georgia Avenue (Georgia Avenue is mostly liquor stores and other businesses), but go a few blocks east or west and there's a million of them. A lot of young children.

It's hard to imagine how this plan would *not* result in many children being killed. I would think someone will sue to stop this truly insane idea.

The status quo has already resulted in at least one actual - not hypothetical - child being actually - not hypothetically - killed.

On a different street. After 16th Street was redesigned.

The child was killed at the intersection of Kennedy and Georgia. The family was crossing Kennedy at Georgia - just like you would do if you were walking along Georgia and needed to get to the other side of Kennedy. And yet you keep insisting that the intersection of Kennedy and Georgia has nothing to do with Georgia.

they crossed from one side of Kennedy to the other side of Kennedy. Breaking the law in the process, it's probably worth noting.

https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/bike_ped_traffic_reg_summary_0_0.pdf

"If a pedestrian crosses a roadway AT ANY POINT OTHER THAN A MARKED CROSSWALK, or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, THE PEDESTRIAN SHALL YEILD THE RIGHT OF WAY TO ANY VEHICLE."

At Georgia.

Is it open season on four-year-old children who break traffic laws, now? Are you the one expressing concern about the safety of children on "side streets"?

Not PP but what are you talking about re: “open season on 4 year olds”. The point is that crossing a road can be dangerous. That is true especially when Jay walking. It is parents’ responsibility to look out for 4 year olds and not let them run into the street.

You know, it's interesting, because I would say it's drivers' responsibility to look out for 4 year olds and not hit them, and I would also say it's DDOT's responsibility to make crossing a road safe.

A person might infer from your post that you actually are not concerned about the safety of children, after all.

The primary person charged with ensuring the safety of the deceased boy did not do that, for whatever reason. No one is blaming a four year old He however was accompanied by an adult who had an absolute duty to keep him from harm.

Can you be sure that the child would still be alive if he had crossed the street on a crosswalk? I can’t. People are killed in DC every year while crossing with a cross signal on a crosswalk. The most recent person to suffer this fate, I believe, was Patricia Bullinger. She died after being struck by a vehicle while crossing Foxhall Road.

Can be sure the child would be alive if they were in an air balloon instead? In the world of hypotheticals anything can be true.

You want us to follow your philosphy and preferences and editcs, and think like you, but we don't have to. No matter if you have a response to every post that is against your opinion. Volume of words doesn't have the power of mind control.

You are maintaining that the child died because his feet were not touching white paint as if that is what is getting pedestrians killed on DC streets. I am telling you, with reference to specific cases, that this not what is getting pedestrians killed on DC streets. Please don’t try to tell us again how concerned you are about the safety of all the children who live along the side streets or anyone’s safety for that matter.

He jaywalked and his guardian was not holding his hand / he moved in a separate direction from the adult.

Another person blaming a four-year-old for getting killed by a car.

I'm not PP but if it was the car's fault they would have charged the driver. If a kid darts out into traffic unexpectedly there may not be anything the driver can do; sounds like that's what happened here. It's not a 4 year old's "fault" but it is the fault of the adult that should have been supervising the 4 year old to ensure they didn't dart into traffic.

Seriously it's like some of you people never drive. I've had people dart out into the road mid-block. It's scary - and all the more so if it's dark out (I don't know the time of day of the accident w/ the 4 year old; i'm just saying pedestrians seem oblivious to how invisible they are when it's dark and they cut out mid-block into a road.)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

No, they don't. No, they won't. There is not anywhere on Georgia Avenue in DC where Annual Average Daily Traffic (AADT) is higher than 25,000 - vehicles, not people.

For comparison, AADT on the Beltway in the area of the Georgia Ave interchange is roughly 208,000.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

DRIVERS will "dart"? Huh. Sounds dangerous. Someone really ought to do something about those drivers.

If you sincerely thought this was about the safety of children, you would support changes to Georgia AND changes to "the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live)". But you don't. Instead, you actually oppose both of those things. Because it's actually not about safety at all, for you.

See No. 6:

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

The whole "City can't build speed bumps" is an entirely false premise. They could have every parallel street double or triple bumped in the time it would take to restripe the lanes.

And anyway, why are you so mad? GA Ave only has one travel lane these days. There's always a car parked in a travel lane. At least a bus lane would move people, and possibly even get them out of their cars.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

DRIVERS will "dart"? Huh. Sounds dangerous. Someone really ought to do something about those drivers.

If you sincerely thought this was about the safety of children, you would support changes to Georgia AND changes to "the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live)". But you don't. Instead, you actually oppose both of those things. Because it's actually not about safety at all, for you.

See No. 6:

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

As you can see by the incessant lying about the child who was killed on Kennedy street, dead kids are feature, not a bug, of this DDOT plan.

This plan puts children in imminent danger, and when they're inevitably killed, DDOT will then use that to justify further targeting people who drive. DDOT is the arsonist and the firefighter here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

DRIVERS will "dart"? Huh. Sounds dangerous. Someone really ought to do something about those drivers.

If you sincerely thought this was about the safety of children, you would support changes to Georgia AND changes to "the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live)". But you don't. Instead, you actually oppose both of those things. Because it's actually not about safety at all, for you.

See No. 6:

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

The whole "City can't build speed bumps" is an entirely false premise. They could have every parallel street double or triple bumped in the time it would take to restripe the lanes.

And anyway, why are you so mad? GA Ave only has one travel lane these days. There's always a car parked in a travel lane. At least a bus lane would move people, and possibly even get them out of their cars.

Because we don't want our kids killed?

The problem with Georgia Avenue is double parking. The simplest thing to do, that would benefit everyone, is to enforce existing laws against double parking.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Ward 4 has the highest concentration of children under the age of 10 in the city. Some of them will inevitably be killed as a direct result of this DDOT proposal. We all know it will send tens of thousands of cars through side streets of Ward 4 to avoid the gridlock on Georgia that this plan will create.

There's basically no children on Georgia Avenue (Georgia Avenue is mostly liquor stores and other businesses), but go a few blocks east or west and there's a million of them. A lot of young children.

It's hard to imagine how this plan would *not* result in many children being killed. I would think someone will sue to stop this truly insane idea.

The status quo has already resulted in at least one actual - not hypothetical - child being actually - not hypothetically - killed.

On a different street. After 16th Street was redesigned.

The child was killed at the intersection of Kennedy and Georgia. The family was crossing Kennedy at Georgia - just like you would do if you were walking along Georgia and needed to get to the other side of Kennedy. And yet you keep insisting that the intersection of Kennedy and Georgia has nothing to do with Georgia.

they crossed from one side of Kennedy to the other side of Kennedy. Breaking the law in the process, it's probably worth noting.

https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/bike_ped_traffic_reg_summary_0_0.pdf

"If a pedestrian crosses a roadway AT ANY POINT OTHER THAN A MARKED CROSSWALK, or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, THE PEDESTRIAN SHALL YEILD THE RIGHT OF WAY TO ANY VEHICLE."

At Georgia.

Is it open season on four-year-old children who break traffic laws, now? Are you the one expressing concern about the safety of children on "side streets"?

Not PP but what are you talking about re: “open season on 4 year olds”. The point is that crossing a road can be dangerous. That is true especially when Jay walking. It is parents’ responsibility to look out for 4 year olds and not let them run into the street.

You know, it's interesting, because I would say it's drivers' responsibility to look out for 4 year olds and not hit them, and I would also say it's DDOT's responsibility to make crossing a road safe.

A person might infer from your post that you actually are not concerned about the safety of children, after all.

The primary person charged with ensuring the safety of the deceased boy did not do that, for whatever reason. No one is blaming a four year old He however was accompanied by an adult who had an absolute duty to keep him from harm.

Can you be sure that the child would still be alive if he had crossed the street on a crosswalk? I can’t. People are killed in DC every year while crossing with a cross signal on a crosswalk. The most recent person to suffer this fate, I believe, was Patricia Bullinger. She died after being struck by a vehicle while crossing Foxhall Road.

Can be sure the child would be alive if they were in an air balloon instead? In the world of hypotheticals anything can be true.

You want us to follow your philosphy and preferences and editcs, and think like you, but we don't have to. No matter if you have a response to every post that is against your opinion. Volume of words doesn't have the power of mind control.

You are maintaining that the child died because his feet were not touching white paint as if that is what is getting pedestrians killed on DC streets. I am telling you, with reference to specific cases, that this not what is getting pedestrians killed on DC streets. Please don’t try to tell us again how concerned you are about the safety of all the children who live along the side streets or anyone’s safety for that matter.

He jaywalked and his guardian was not holding his hand / he moved in a separate direction from the adult.

Another person blaming a four-year-old for getting killed by a car.

I'm not PP but if it was the car's fault they would have charged the driver. If a kid darts out into traffic unexpectedly there may not be anything the driver can do; sounds like that's what happened here. It's not a 4 year old's "fault" but it is the fault of the adult that should have been supervising the 4 year old to ensure they didn't dart into traffic.

Seriously it's like some of you people never drive. I've had people dart out into the road mid-block. It's scary - and all the more so if it's dark out (I don't know the time of day of the accident w/ the 4 year old; i'm just saying pedestrians seem oblivious to how invisible they are when it's dark and they cut out mid-block into a road.)

The police found that the driver did not do anything illegal. The police did not find that the driver couldn't have done anything to prevent hitting and killing the child.

If you've had people "dart out" into the road mid-block, then you were driving too fast to be able to see people. People don't just up and appear out of nowhere. If you're driving in DC, then you need to drive slowly enough to be able to see people and stop in time. This driver didn't. If you hit and killed someone, would you think, "It's all good, I wasn't doing anything illegal" or would you think "I wish I had done something differently so this person would still be alive"?

The four-year-old was killed around 3:30 pm. Broad daylight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These discussions are always completely ruined by the monomaniacal NIMBYs. Can we have an actual discussion about it?

One caveat: they're not NIMBYs. They don't want bus lanes or bike lanes or anything that might inconvenience driving, anywhere. They are opposed to such things everywhere.

To be fair, my sense isn't that these people are opposed to bike lanes, per se. What they're opposed to is installing them on Georgia Ave. specifically and the resulting loss of driving lanes.

Perhaps more broadly, since we're seeing similar resistance to bike lanes taking over driving lanes on CT and SD Ave, is there's an argument to be made that bike lanes don't belong on main arterial streets. One can make that argument while not being opposed to bike lanes overall.

They are opposed to installing bike lanes on arterial streets that they drive along. And they are opposed to installing bike lanes on side streets they drive or park along. And they find common cause with others who oppose bike lanes on arterial and side streets that others bike and park along. But they are probably OK with bike lanes in Oslo, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam, should they wish to vacation there. So I guess that makes them not opposed to bike lanes “overall”? OK.

is this supposed to be a gotcha? People have preferences that are not yours. That is fine. Are we supposed to be concerned that you do not always get your way? You do not care if we get our way, so why should we care about your wants?

People have preferences and it’s usually much more productive if people are straightforward about their preferences rather than trying to cloak them with ridiculous arguments about how bus lanes will cause kids to die.

+100. I wish we could have rational arguments about this.

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

This is the worst pro-car propaganda I've seen in a minute. Drivers are such monsters that they will kill kids rather than take a few minutes longer to get to work? It comes across like a hostage taking scenario.

You would be better served arguing that DC won't enforce the bus lane, and won't even bother with signal priority so drivers will just use the bus lane anyway and clog things up.

It's "pro-car propaganda" to point out that drivers will avoid Georgia at all costs if this proposal goes through, and will dart through the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live) in search of a shortcut and that will lead to a lot more accidents? You not only don't have a good response, you don't even have a coherent response.

But keep posting away. Your arguments are terrible, but you do keep this thread at the top of the DCUM leaderboard and the more people learn of this DDOT proposal, the more opposition there will be to it. Parents tend to go on high alert when there's a threat to their kids.

DRIVERS will "dart"? Huh. Sounds dangerous. Someone really ought to do something about those drivers.

If you sincerely thought this was about the safety of children, you would support changes to Georgia AND changes to "the quiet streets of Ward 4 (where tens of thousands of children live)". But you don't. Instead, you actually oppose both of those things. Because it's actually not about safety at all, for you.

See No. 6:

It's pretty straightforward.

1. Hundreds of thousands of people drive on Georgia Avenue every day
2. Making half the lanes on Georgia Avenue bus only will create total gridlock
3. Drivers don't like gridlock. Those hundreds of thousands of drivers will pour into every side street in Ward 4
4. Ward 4 is home to the most number of small children in the city
5. Using Waze, drivers will speed through all those nooks and crannies of Ward 4 because they are trying to make up the time lost by not being able to take Georgia
6. The city does not have the capacity to build enough speed bumps quickly enough to prevent lots of children from dying


This isn't hard to understand, unless you're just really dumb, which, at this point, we can't rule out.

The whole "City can't build speed bumps" is an entirely false premise. They could have every parallel street double or triple bumped in the time it would take to restripe the lanes.

And anyway, why are you so mad? GA Ave only has one travel lane these days. There's always a car parked in a travel lane. At least a bus lane would move people, and possibly even get them out of their cars.

Because we don't want our kids killed?

The problem with Georgia Avenue is double parking. The simplest thing to do, that would benefit everyone, is to enforce existing laws against double parking.

If you don't want your kids killed, then you should support speed humps, not oppose them.

The simplest thing to do on Georgia Avenue, that would benefit everyone, is to build a bus lane with automated enforcement.